Quote:
Her vote for Amber ruin ASS. Sadly, that won her a car.
Had she voted for Rob, he would've won and given her the car.
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kingpin34 |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
Quote: Had she voted for Rob, he would've won and given her the car. |
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Pulau Tiga |
Re: re: | ||
Quote:No. Stephenie made all the wrong moves, and that's why she lost. She cut out all of the players that she should have been trying to take to the F2. And her Nakum alliance consisted of at least 2 people that made everyone angry (Judd and Jamie), so you're wrong there as well. Quote:Danielle's only solid strategic move was booting Bob Dawg pre-merge. Everything beyond that either didn't involve her, or hurt her chances. She made plenty of mistakes (why in the world did she win that final IC?), and she deserved to lose. Quote:She was the only member of the Tagi alliance that bonded with Pagong. Whether it had to do with her hate of the pecking order or an honest attempt at winning jury votes, it was a great move that almost won her the game. Quote:I don't hate Shii Ann like other posters (I don't really like her, either), so my opinion of her vote isn't, "she like coat-tail riders." Shii Ann recognized in her boot episode that Amber was going to win, and she recognized that Amber put herself in the position to win from the get-go. Rob could have cared less about the social game, and Amber played that part much better. Shii Ann noted that while Rob dominated, he lacked any kind of tact or charisma while going about his scheming, whereas Amber created true bonds with people. She saw a social game that Amber played better, and rewarded it with a million dollars. Either way, the money was going to the same place. Quote:Clay was a scapegoat that almost won. Brian almost lost the game by being so damn poor at connecting with people. Clay knew he had a real chance at winning against Brian, and played exactly the game he had to to win the million. Unfortuantely, a few poor comments and false claims cost him the one vote he needed to pull it off. Quote:As far as the PI jury was concerned, Jon played the best strategic game out there. He was never voted out, unlike Lill. He had no pretense of the nice guy, and was expected to backstab people (while Lillian made a show of being pure and then screwed everybody over). I can understand a Jon over Lill vote, especially from a bitter jury. Quote:I think he knew Jenna would vote for Rupert at the F4, so that doesn't factor into things much. He was likely afraid that taking out Rupert and Jenna would cost him their jury votes (2 of them) whereas taking out Tom would only cost him one vote. Quote:I wasn't. They're the players that lost the game not because they were threats in one way or another, but because they simply played a poor game. F3 is full of players that played the game so damn well that the final IC winner couldn't take them to the F2. It makes perfect sense that the 3rd place position has more great players than 2nd. |
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finishthemoff |
Re: re: | ||
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If Rob vote out Rupert at 5th and Jenna at 4th, I'm pretty sure he will still get their votes. If Tom was gone at third, Tom would have been more forgiving.
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Quiddity |
Re: re: | ||
Quote: Except that Kelly probably still would have gotten most of the Pagong votes if she stayed with the alliance. No one criticizes the fact that she got along with Jenna, Colleen and Gervase pretty well. People criticize the fact that she left a sure thing (the Tagi alliance), which pretty much guaranteed that none of the Tagis were gonna vote for her and guaranteed that she would have been 6th had she not won 4 straight immunities. She went from a position where she'd coast to final 4 to a position where she had to scratch and claw her way there. The fact that she was so upset with being in the Tagi alliance and compared Rich to the devil after voting with the alliance only 3 times gives credence to the theory (Gervase's, I think) that Rich and co. essentially forced her into the alliance and that she did it not as a strategy, but because she had little other choice (her earlier attempts to have gotten Rudy voted off having failed miserably). Agree with everything else you said :) |
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finishthemoff |
Re: re: | ||
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Kelly W should get along with pagong members! They are closer to her age than older tagi tribe members.
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cg41386 |
Re: re: | ||
Quote: Janu made the F3? 1) Kelly W 2) Twila 3) Danielle 4) Kim J 5) Colby 6) Neleh 7) Rob M 8) Katie 9) Matt 10) Lillian 11) Stephenie |
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craig |
Criteria | ||
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This is fascinating for a "ranking" topic because there are so many conflicting criteria.
Rob M - obviously #1 because he married and got to share the prize the the hot chick who was his partner from day one. Colby and Clay - if coming close to winning is important, they rank near the top. Both made some smart moves, and could have won if one juror had different prioriries. Katie - if having a strategic lock on making F2 since before the merge is good, Katie takes the cake. Danielle, Kim J, Lill - although they couldn't beat anyone in F4 and had to fight to get there, they had the satisfaction of foiling their adversaries and deciding who won. There is more honour in losing decisively to Aras, Ethan, or Sandra than in handing the game to the other team or to a despicable person. Twila and Steph - they betrayed too many people, but you could give them credit for making bold moves. Would have had a shot against their partners in crime (Scout\Rafe) if they'd won the final IC. |
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dennydoylelives |
Re: Criteria | ||
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1. Kelly Probably the best game play of any F2 loser. Her only mistake was not forcing the F4 tie between Sue & Rich. She would have won if she had done that. Plus, her immunity run was very impressive.
2. Colby His big mistake was at F3, choosing to send Keith packing instead of Tina, so he has to rate below Kelly. Otherwise, his game was pretty flawless, even if Tina was the brains behind his gameplay. 3. Neleh The only other F2 loser with a legitimate shot at winning in the end. She just wasn't as impressive as Kelly or Colby. 4. Rob He's only this high because he somehow managed to get 3 votes, (of course, 2 of those were from the biggest morons on ASS, Jenna & Rupert.) 5. Clay Only got 3 votes because of a massive jury brainfart. He was completely outplayed by his opponent, and made an excellent goat. 6. Kim Not overly impressive, but key immunities propelled her from F4 to F2. Still, getting to F4 was totally based on riding coattails. 7. Danielle. By helping to get rid of the goats, she became the goat. Some strategy along the way, but the strategy was almost always more helpful to her alliance mates than to her. 8. Twila Classic goat, but she did manage to get 2 votes at the end. It might not be the best idea to tell someone who has the power of giving you a vote for a million dollars to fuck off. Her strategy was sound, but her social skills were nonexistant. 9. Matt Of the one vote wonders, he's the least repulsive or objectionable. He's just sort of cweepy. 10. Katie Reached new heights of being the perfect F2 goat. Lazy? Check. Offended jurors? Check. Only there by riding coattails? Check. If someone should write the handbook of how to come in second place in Survivor, it's Katie. 11. Stephame Like Danielle, she voted off the goats and put herself into the position of goat, rather than trying to find a way to take a goat to F2 herself. But far worse than DDL was the fact that, she wasn't voting off goats to save alliance mates, she did it to save someone outside of her alliance. 12. Lil First, her torch had already been snuffed once. But when let back into the game, she managed to start playing, and got to the F3. OK, so far, better than Katie. She wins the final immunity and has the choice between the most hatable character in Survivor history, or a reasonably pleasant and rather non-objectionable person. She may not have won against Fagplay, but she could have gotten a few more votes, and she wouldn't be in the running for the single biggest boneheaded move in Survivor history. |
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colleenlover |
Re: Criteria | ||
Quote: but I don't understand how -yes they ended up in good spots but it wasn't based on strategic moves. Someone can dart out into traffic and still make it to the other side, doesn't mean it was smart to do it. Kelly was locked into final two with Sue (and had successfully made Richard think he was final two with Sue) -and I understand bonding with the Pagongs was fine, but she did more than that -she kept yanking their chains giving them hope ("Kelly was a double agent from the beginning!" -Colleen) Plus she had no idea Sue would give the scathing speech that gave Gervase and Jenna's vote (Colleen contrary to belief, changed her vote not because of Sue's speech but because of Kelly's answer) Neleh's biggest mistake was not blurring her solid relationship with Paschal -instead she broadcast it to everyone that she wouldn't write his name down. At least give Kathy some reason to stay with you at final five. |
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GlobalCroc |
Re: Criteria | ||
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Ranking the 3rd place finishers is much better in many cases those were the best players.
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fanofcoils |
Re: Criteria | ||
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I'm finally watching Survivor Amazon for the first time, 3 years after the fact. Made it through the 2nd episode so far. I am wondering why did Christy vote for Jenna in the finale? I thought she would vote for the nice guy who wasn't a good Survivor player (Matt) over Jenna?
I am also wondering why Jenna "never said a word" to Christy, during the first five days? |
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fanofcoils |
Re: Criteria | ||
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I am also wondering who do you think is the better 3rd place finisher and why, Rob C or Jon?
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finishthemoff |
Re: Criteria | ||
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Without doubt, Jon.
His plan is far more solid than Rob C. Jon would kept Christy over Heidi and Jenna. Jon is far better challenge performance than Rob (!). He consistently came in second! |
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The Marquesan Godfather |
Re: Criteria | ||
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These ranking threads are getting even more absurd.
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TheLurkerSpeaks |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
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I think it is harder to rank the runners up than the winners. The winners actually all achieved their goal so we can evaluate how they got there. With the losers, there's a lot more question of whether they could have won if only ...
Still, the criteria should be the same. Split the game between positioning skill and popularity skill. Positioning Clay Rob Colby Twila Matt Lillian Danielle Kim Katie Kelly Stephenie Neleh Rob and Clay each worked their positioning game to perfection (almost). Rob was the strategist for his pairing, making it so either he won or his girlfriend did, but I agree he made an arguable mistake in burning Tom at F5. Clay never gets enough credit for the symbiotic relationship he developed with Brian that came within a vote of success. Colby did get outmaneuvered by Tina, but that's nothing to be too ashamed of. Taking Tina was an error, of course, but he did go into that decision knowing what he was doing. As others have mentioned, Twila did know when to make her move, and she pulled it off. Matt may be an enigma, but his errors are in the other half of the equation. Much like Clay, he recognized another player as his ticket through the game, and he played Rob like a fiddle (even as Rob played him in turn). He let Rob lead the way and make the enemies while he kept Rob comfortable by playing the fool and thus not a threat. He also set up Alex as a challenge threat. Really, it is remarkable how well Matt played in this aspect considering where he started. Lillian made a lot of moves though it is difficult to see that all of them benefited her greatly. She certainly did keep her eye on the finals though and was willing to dump the coattails she was riding as it suited her. Danielle did alright in this aspect, or at least the evidence is that she was working this aspect. She probably made a mistake in voting out Courtney and giving the control to Aras and Cirie, but she was able to cut a deal with Terry to sneak herself past. She probably should have been more active in positioning though. Kim and Katie are the true coattail riders. Both stuck to their initial alliance and let it carry them. There's not much to separate them. Kelly didn't know what she was doing, which is understandable since she was in the first season. But detatching herself from the alliance without finding some other deal was just ridiculous positioning, hence the need for her immunity run. Stephenie was letting Rafe run the show, but she actually sabotaged her own position with her voting out of Jamie and Judd, let alone the failure to remove Danni. Finally, there's Neleh, who had to be led into even the most obvious positioning move against the Rotu 4, who then refused to consider deals with Tammy and Robert as the Rotu 4 were pagonged all while making it obvious that Vee and Sean were next out. She was far too passive at the positioning game. Popularity Colby Neleh Kelly Kim Clay Stephenie Rob Lillian Danielle Katie Matt Twila Colby's by far the most popular runner up ever, and it isn't without reason. He provided and worked hard and got along with people (to their face anyway). Neleh's whole strategy was to avoid offending anyone, and she was well-liked. It's just that her failure to take responsibility for her votes backfired against her. Kelly's very similar in that she tried to be nice as a strategy, and it almost worked (except that it angered those she previously had been allied with). Kim was not really a popular figure, but she didn't make enemies either (except for Tom, who probably couldn't be helped). I'm surprised she ranks this high except for the truly bad social players among the runners up. Clay could be a good social player as he proved with regard to Penny, Erin, and Ken, or he could be an awful social player as he proved with regard to Helen and Jake. Stephenie developed a strong following aided by her celebrity status, but she sabotaged it with needless blindsides. Likewise for Rob who almost certainly threw away the win by how he handled the boots. Lillian's sour complaining made enemies, especially when she threw in a knife to the back (at least in the minds of those booted). From the backstabbers, we move to the do-nothings. Danielle's decision to play quietly may have gotten her further, but it didn't make nearly enough friends. Likewise, Katie's laziness cost her respect from her jury. Adding her caustic comments meant she was cutting off her potential votes. Then there's Matt, who's strategy of acting clueless and crazy actually drove people away. For all the good his positioning did him, he had no chance of winning a vote. Worst of all, there's Twila, who actually antagonized the other players during the jury proceedings. She only got the vote of her loyal ally and that of Ami, who was more disgusted with Chris. Julie and Eliza preferred to vote for the player who needlessly stabbed them rather than vote for Twila. Simple combining of the scores leads to: Colby 4 Clay 6 Rob 9 Kim 12 Kelly 13 Neleh 14 Lillian 14 Matt 16 Twila 16 Danielle 16 Stephenie 17 Katie 19 But my preference leans toward positioning so doubling that score and adding the popularity score gives us: Colby 7 Clay 7 Rob 11 Kim 20 Lillian 20 Twila 20 Matt 21 Kelly 23 Danielle 23 Neleh 26 Katie 28 Stephenie 28 This approximates my overall view. Note the huge gap between the first three and the rest. |
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terrysux1234 |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
Quote: He was never going to get her vote. I think that was one of the best responses to a jury question. Basically it was sit down and shut up helen. I think he was better at reading people than given credit on this board and he did pull 3 votes. Steph was never ever going to win. Second chance players could only win against other second chance players. She needed bobby jon to go against in F2. Anyone else had the second chance card to play if needed. Same goes for Lil |
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Quiddity |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
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Dunno, I think in a final 2 against Judd Steph would have gotten votes from Rafe, Gary, Lydia, Danni and BJ, with Judd only getting them from Jamie and Cindy. If Jamie kept behaving the way he was, she could have beat him 6-1 or 7-0. Against any of the other 4 in the final 5 she would have gotten slaughtered, but I think she could have beat those 2. Which is why booting them willingly makes her such an idiot.
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TheIsraeliDevil |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
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Kim and Katie are the true coattail riders. Both stuck to their initial alliance and let it carry them. There's not much to separate them.
Except Katie's alliance assured her that she'd make F2, while Kim's allies promised her fourth place. |
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GlobalCroc |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
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"I am also wondering why Jenna "never said a word" to Christy, during the first five days?"
Because, according to Deena, Christy was almost never there. She went off by herself and was miserable. |
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unduli clone |
Re: Rank the 2nd Placers | ||
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Never saw Africa... 01. Matt He really couldn't have done much else. Cliques killed him. 02. Rob M. Played a great game, but pissed the jury. 03. Colby Played a good game, but had an awful jury speech. 04. Neleh She did play good, but just wasn't convincing on the jury. What did her in was how bitter Rotu was. 05. Twila Just had people hate her. 06. Clay Played for second, but actually came close. 07. Kelly Played a pretty bad game. 08. Danielle Played for second. 09. Lill Played for second. 10. StepheME Played for nothing. She was a whiny bitch who couldn't have beat anyone, even if it was her second season. 11. Katie 'Nuff said. |
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