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IluvGoddessCirie |
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Best gameplay. 1.) Boston Rob-Best strageist never to win. Owned his season, betrayed too many people, but didn't really matter since he married the
winner. (this takes nothing away from Amber who I think played great too.) 2.)Twila. Almost put her at 1, given the level of strategic control she had over her
season. However, like Rob she broke too many alliances and pissed of too many people. Should have apolagised to Eliza at Final TC. 3.) Danielle. Yes she played
a poor social game and voted out the person (Courtney) she had the best chance of beating, but was always in control of the game, and was the only person to
cast death votes for every eliminated contestant. Good moves made eg. getting Terri to align with her at F4. 4.) Colby- Dominated the challenges, played well
generally till his dreadful final three decision. 5.) Steph. Dominated the game, everyone was basically her bitch (Judd, Rafe, Lydia and Cyndi), made some
dreadful moves towards the end, but I have to give her credit for dominating things like she did. Good in challenges too. 6.) Ozzy. Owned the challenges,
decent, if not great strategist, bit of a poor social game. Good final tribal council performance that wasn't quite good enough. 7.) Lill. Major twist
beneficiary, but played it very well upon her return. Always knew what was going on, did very well with what she had. 8.) Matt. Great competitor, wonderful
provider, awful, clueless strategist who improved towards the end. Played a piss poor social game. 9. Neleh. Good move in changing up the game at final nine.
Cant ever forgive her "I only started play the game on day 22" shit. Awful final TC performance. 10.)Clay. Don;t know that much about Thailand, but
was seemingly a lazy asshole who everyone on his original tribe loathed. Brian's goat. 11.)Dreamz. Made a hell of a lot of moves, made his season
entertaining, but backstabed unecessarily. Horrible social game. 12.)Courtney. Love her! But not a strategic bone in her body. Dragged by Todd and Amanda to
final three. 13-16) Cassandra, Kim J and Katie. The ultimate goats. Had power to change things up, but never did, thus essentially giving Tom, Earl and Ethan
their wins. Useless coatailriding idiots.
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colleenlover |
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How is Rob's game any different than Colby's game? The leaving Amber to team up with Lis and Rodger is maybe equal to Rob voting out Big Tom in terms
of evening up the odds for the underdogs, but Colby treated people a lot nicer than Rob did, without the possibility of revenge votes. Colby at least set it
up that he had a goat to beat in the end with Keith. Rob made it that it would be an uphill batttle to win against anyone.
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McPhever224 |
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1. Stephanie 2. Neleh 3. Courtney 4. Danielle 5. Colby 6. Katie 7. Kim J 8. Boston Rob 9. Casandra 10. Twila 11. Kelly 12. Lil 13. Ozzy 14. Matt 15. Dreamz 16.
Clay Well, 1 and 2, Steph and Neleh are two of my favorite survivors to ever play the game! Courtney I liked a lot! 4-13, I either liked or was kinda meh about
and 14-16 i DESPISED. *****It wont let me hit enter and idk how to can someone explain this to me.....
Last Edited By: McPhever224
01/15/08 6:48 PM.
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 2135 (01/15/08 8:56 PM) Registered user |
colleenlover wrote: How was he supposed to know the jury would be that angry? I was totally shocked, I had no idea some of my formally favorite contestents could reach such levels of hypocrisy |
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SurvivorNinja |
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What do you mean how would he know the jury would be angry? He lied to Lex and knew he was sending him (and Kathy by association) to the Jury pissed...then he
picked off two original Chapera members in Alicia and Tom to keep JLew and Rupert who only joined after the disolve...so he knew Tom and Alicia would be pissed
not to be taken to F4 as was originally planned (or atleast Tom and Alicia were lead to believe this to be fact). Rupert and Jenna were thankful to make F4 so
he got their two votes but lost four others in Lex, Kathy, Alicia and Tom...he got lucky that Kathy hated Amber more so he got her vote..and unlucky that Shii
Ann respected Amber more and lost her vote.
My point is Rob knew full well Alicia, Lex, Kathy and Tom would not be happy...he just didn't care because if he didnt get the money his future wife would. |
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colleenlover |
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Are you really serious? He treated Lex and Kathy terribly -even if you see Rob's side, their reaction at the time was indicative to how they could vote (luckily for him, Kathy forgave him), he made a handshake deal with Alicia, an emotional player; and then blindsiding Big Tom. Colby had everyone -execpt Jerri- still respecting and admiring him. You were really shocked? And then on the commentary we learned he didn't do any work around camp once he had his advantage. Colby played with a lot more tact. I'm not championing being a fan of one over the other, just pointing out game moves. |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 2138 (01/15/08 9:49 PM) Registered user |
Well, since Alicia is off in her own altenate realty, Rob shouldn't her to vote for him. This could be a lie or exaggeration, but Rob said he called out
the jury for their hypocrisy. Ithink with the proper oratory skills he could of turned a few votes in his favor. Lex and Big Tom WERE SUCH FUCKING BABIES, and
I would never have expected that if I were Rob, if I were Rob I would take Lexs reaction to his impending boot as a desperate play to stay. Colby on the other
hand, played a respectful game but his not taking Keith automatically nullifies any positives
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colleenlover |
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No, it does not. If we're talking about understanding the game. What if Rupert won immunity at final four, and Amber left? Rob would be considered one of
the biggest idiots.
Colby understood each and every move he made fully. |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 2139 (01/15/08 10:10 PM) Registered user |
who says he couldnt have won the last ic. Rupert would give him a run for his money, but hes not insurmountable. Colby understands the game better, but Rob has
superior skills as far as manipulation, Ill give you that
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colleenlover |
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Yes, he could have won the final challenge and picked Jenna and perhaps still lost. It was a huge gamble throwing away Big Tom.
I was only talking about people being good strategists and understanding what they were doing every single time. Sorry, if I sat down with Colby and played a strategy game with him, I'd be very wary -just because he made a choice at the end, doesn't mean he doesn't understand what he's doing. Rob is extremely good too. I don't rank winners or second place people -I just pick out the players I think are/were very good. |
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beatles20147 |
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Lex and Big Tom WERE SUCH FUCKING BABIES, and I would never have expected that if I were Rob, if I were Rob I would take Lexs reaction to his impending boot as a desperate play to stay. How could Rob have not expected Lex and Tom to be pissed? Even if Rob assumed that Lex was just trying to stay in the game, there's an Insider video from Lex's boot ep after Kathy and Lex realize that Rob's not gonna keep them around. She confronts him and he turns into a total jerk. She says, "Vote us off, but treat us with respect." And of course he tries to make her look like the bad guy right after that. Rob's strategy didn't cost him the game. He lost the game by going out of his way to be an absolute asshole, and I say that as someone who still wishes he'd won over Amber. There were four people who were sent to that jury infuriated with the guy, and he had nobody to blame but himself for that. who says he couldnt have won the last ic. Rupert would give him a run for his money, but hes not insurmountable. Yeah, but Rob's only hope in the final two is to be up against Amber and have her seen as a coattail rider. Anyone else vs. either half of Romber would've won a million bucks. Colby understands the game better, but Rob has superior skills as far as manipulation, Ill give you that I don't know about that; Amber and Jerri seemed totally assured that Colby was with them when in reality he was completely playing them both. Colby manipulates with charm; Rob manipulates in a slimy way that works well initially but backfires after he doesn't follow through. |
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unduli clone |
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So I just finished watching Africa for the first time - now I've seen every season. I guess it makes a bit of sense rating Kim J so low, but she is somewhat underrated. Essentially her and Ethan were the exact same player except she had physical handicaps which made people like Tom dislike her from the tribal perspective. She had a lot more to overcome than him and played pretty much the same way. But I guess it makes sense for her to be low in these rankings, considering Ethan's ranking are about the same in the winners circle. |
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colleenlover |
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Kim should be ranked low as a player not because of her age which she has no control over, but because she kept walking into moves that would end her game
life. Supporting the Kelly boot for one with Lex and Tom having more votes against them. And then Lex TELLING her to her face that he hopes he and Tom can
salvage their friendship so they can continue on to the end together (THIS IS IN THE FINAL FIVE OR FOUR!) Her telling us "as much as those guys SAY they
want to go to the end together..." -So she has knowledge and the power to weed out the guys without malice and pure cause, and she doesn't. She was
constantly working against herself when it mattered most. Ethan is also in the same boat.
Africa is such a boomerang season where everyone in the first half is operating on all cylinders and then throw everything away. |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 2143 (01/15/08 11:01 PM) Registered user |
beatles20147 wrote: Tom just may have voted for Rob if he was as annoyed with Jenna as he seemed to be. Amber and Jerri joined Colby because they didn't have a choice, not because of Colbys charm As far as Rob being an asshole, I agree with you, and I know your going to disagree with me here, but the jury is supposed to vote for the best player, PERIOD. I give Amber credit for persuading Shii Ann, though |
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colleenlover |
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Amber and Jerri joined Colby because they didn't have a choice, not because of Colbys charm
No, maybe not charm, but because they thought they'd go final three with him. Tom was annoyed with Jenna because of her personality -but he was offended by his friend Rob, and was voting out of spite. On the Insider when Amber has been saved and off on her trip with Rupert and Jenna, Rob and Tom even talk about the final three being Rob, Tom and Lex with Tom suggesting Amber leaving fourth and being fine with it -so I don't know how Rob thought Tom was duping him when he was out in the open with it. Dr. Will Hatch, just based on your screen name you like admire the hardcore schemers which is fine -but you have to take into account most players are emotional and a player has to take it into account when eliminating them -so even if someone is a looney like you suggest Alicia is -well, there's evidence of their behavior before they're voted out and the good player must read and treat them accordingly. fun debating with you though! |
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RavuRules |
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Sorry colleenlover, but in terms of performed deeds, Outback Colby was inferior to Rob M. And ASS just proved more his weak grasp of the strategic game
For 1 thing luck. Colby had a lot more good luck than Rob. He had Jerri and Amber as natural in-pocket allies among many others due to natural bonds, Mike falling in the fire, and the level of challenge competition was just way significantly lower than All-Stars. When he finally was in a position to take what was rightfully his, he completely blew it. I personally think he thought he'd win, although knowing it wasn't in the bag, because I really doubt he knowingly knew he was giving up $1 million. It was a somewhat cocky move and rightfully ranked as the #1 worst move in Survivor history over at Sucks. Contrast this to Rob where he was almost forced to have to appease his tribe enemies due to an out-of-game relationship, lost Amber due to a bad twist of fate, not to mention competing against Survivor veterans who were both stronger in challenges and strategy than the people in Outback What did Rob do that was bad? He wasn't mean in terms of what was shown on TV. What made things so bad was the out-of-game relationship context brought into the game. So the scope of the social management involved is far greater than a normal season. Some unreasonable expectations were rather put onto him in terms of balancing a friendship and the game. The only thing close to that which Colby had to deal with what a resentful Jerri Colby at least set it up that he had a goat to beat in the end with Keith. Rob made it that it would be an uphill batttle to win against anyone.A goat which he didn't use which almost makes it worse. It means he didn't know Keith was a goat or if he did, was playing an emotional game, or miscalculated what the appropriate winning decision would be. #1 and 2 are the worst possible scenarios for him, with #3 being a little more understandable, but still suggesting flawed strategic intuitions on his part. It is understandable since Survivor endgame strategy was mostly unchartered territory at the time, but that doesn't make a naive Colby any better of a player in retrospect Are you really serious? He treated Lex and Kathy terribly -even if you see Rob's side, their reaction at the time was indicative to how they could vote (luckily for him, Kathy forgave him), he made a handshake deal with Alicia, an emotional player; and then blindsiding Big Tom.Rob treated Lex and Kathy "terribly" in terms of their friendship which is a non-normal game dynamic. It still is significant and we definitely consider it and mark it against his assessment and adaptation abilities, but at the same time, Colby and others have not had to deal with those kind of game factors. If Lex and Kathy never had a relationship with Rob, then Rob didn't treat them poorly at all. We have nothing to really compare it too, because no one has really been in that situation really Even if he knew Lex and Kathy were pissed at him, there was no way to really go back. What would he have done? Sided with Kathy and Shii Ann against
Rupert, Jenna, Alicia, and Tom? He was going to piss people off regardless due to the situation he was put in due to an outside game relationship.
That's just bad luck. The handshake deal made with Alicia was largely a back-up plan because he got bad luck AGAIN due to the swap twist which sent
Amber over to Mogo-Mogo. He probably wouldn't have made that deal with her, but once he had to face potentially losing Amber, he needed a new side.
And he couldn't have even necessarily predicted her emotional vengeful jury reaction, because she never had to be backstabbed in Outback due to the
Pagoning. Blindsiding Big Tom before F3 was probably a bad move though. Still, Colby's blunder seemed far greater to me than Rob's mistake there.
Colby likely lost several jury votes there, whereas Rob only lost 1 with Tom
Colby had everyone -execpt Jerri- still respecting and admiring him.This is true. However, again, ASS's context was a lot different. You had a lot of egos and outside relationships involved and it was 1 of the more vengeful juries ever. That emotional turmoil was greater than anything Rob did in the game You were really shocked? And then on the commentary we learned he didn't do any work around camp once he had his advantage. Colby played with a lot more tact.Seeing as how Rob's shelter-building and challenge abilities largely carried Chapera to most of its wins in the 1st place, I think the guy was entitled to a little laziness. And he probably didn't do work because he didn't want to leave camp. A key strategy for many players is to never leave camp or stick with the group. When you leave the group for even a moment, that's when people talk badly to you behind your back and strategize without you. We saw him due it to Shii Ann when she left camp. He'd scapegoat her to all of Chapera and get them on the same page. We've seen it kill Ted's game when he took the boat ride out for alone time and everyone could talk about him like he was doing something weird or wrong. Rafe had to break-up Cindy talking to the ladies sitting on the steps of the Guatemala pyramid at F5. Ozzy arguably lost CI because he was out "working" and providing, while others were around camp working over the future jurors. Frosti and Todd both constantly tried to break up little groups of people to make sure they were in the know. There is usually an upside and downside to any move, but I didn't see Colby being significantly more tactful than Rob. In fact, I saw him basically insult Jerri at the final jury questioning when he should've been kissing her ass What you're proposing doesn't really make much sense. You are essentially saying that Colby didn't care if he won or not. Which means: his sole goal was to go to the finals with Tina. This we know is not true, because Colby constantly told us that he was there for the money/winning and not friendship and all that. He said in a confessional that he didn't know if he could win against Tina, but he didn't say he was going to lose for sure against her either. He was trying to win and keep his relative integrity at the same time. In terms of winning or absolute game focus, that is ultimately a half-ass approach even if it's admirable that he tried to live up to certain principles (see Ian). He certainly wasn't intending to lose. He wasn't meh about it either. So both by logical deduction and common sense, he was intending to win. If that was his intention then "understanding the game" would mean he should've taken Keith, since that was the OBVIOUS winning decision whereas winning against Tina was up in the air as even he put it (likely out of political correctness) And even if he "understands" the game, what good is it if you don't apply your knowledge in a practical way? If you can't make the tough moves when it counts, then it still makes you a weaker player bottom line. Not being cold enough, having too much heart, not wanting to hurt your integrity, etc. make you "bad" players in Survivor even if it makes you a winner in life. Unfortunately, Survivor is a mean game, because it's political. And sadly, politics is rarely about true integrity and virtue That never happened, so while the potential of Rob's decision remains speculation, Colby's actual game-end blunder DID occur Colby understood each and every move he made fully. Even if that's true (which I disagree with), all that means is that he understood that he was playing a losing game (which doesn't make sense). If he did know he was playing a losing game, then it still makes him a bad player, since he doesn't have game focus and winning desire I was only talking about people being good strategists and understanding what they were doing every single time.Even assuming Colby was a good strategist in Outback (which again, I doubt), he certainly demonstrated very weak strategy in All-Stars. I doubt he got dumber from Outback to ASS, so that's where I get my assessment of Colby from. He didn't seem to have a good grasp on the game in multiple instances where I can't even give him the benefit-of-the-doubt Either way you look at it, it was a terrible move. You can come up with as many excuses as you want, but not being able to execute and understood strategy is perhaps worse than not understanding the optimal move in the 1st place. He choked no matter how you look at it or justify it |
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SurvivorNinja |
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On the topic of luck....Rob M was lucky to even get on ASS...that in itself is more luck than Colby ever had in Australia. I'd write a huge amount more but i'm pretty much behind what colleenlover said 100%.
Last Edited By: SurvivorNinja
01/15/08 11:40 PM.
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colleenlover |
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Ravu, I never want to debate you because you win simply based on length.
You cannot EVER, use the type of argument though that X never happened so it doesn't matter. Go run across the highway now! Oh, you didn't get hit by a car, good job. But dumb move. Same is true with Rob voting out Tom and Rupert or Jenna not winning immunity. I just erased a lot of my response because you will be able to poke holes in all of it because we think differently and will just go around in circles. Bottom line -I don't think Colby is a bad player and I don't think Rob is a bad player. |
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SwineForkbeard |
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RavuRules wrote: So what, you're speculating that Colby would have beaten Keith. How can you call something a blunder without speculating that there were better options available, and predicting the result of scenarios that didn't happen? And if we can do that, why can't we speculate that there were better, or at least safer, options in situations where people took unnecessary risks when they should have known better? There's no getting around the speculation, so you can't cite that as grounds to dismiss an argument. |
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RavuRules |
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Ravu, I never want to debate you because you win simply based on length. I win on content. It's long because there's a lot of reasons to back up my points
Haha. At first I thought you were telling ME to run across the highway lol. I'm not saying, "It doesn't matter". I'm saying, you're making a certain assumptions that you can't make because we're speculating. You're already assuming that it's, "Go run across the highway now," when it may be like, "Run across the street when no cars are going by". It's difficult to tell where some things stand without data. We can speculate, but that can only go so far. There is always a way you can speculate positively and negatively and without data, neither side can be confirmed
I don't think either is a bad player either. We're admittedly arguing on minutia
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