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She won for one reason and one reason only, winning the final 2 immunity challenges. She was a great individual challenge performer, winning four challenges, but strategically she wasn't great, and socially she wasn't great, just better than one of the most socially inept people in game history.
According to the criteria I spelled out, the most important component is OUTLASTING whether that be through OUTWIT or OUTPLAY. Jenna controlled the game (OUTWIT) through her alliances for the majority of the game, and when that failed, she OUTPLAYED by winning the rest of the challenges. In that sense, she's demonstrated versatility and had a surprising amount of dominance over voting control when you look at the facts raw. I was highly surprised by these facts, because I initally thought she sucked as a player. Her biggest flaw would be wanting to be voted out during her breakdown. Other than that, Jenna is a serious player. Again, the smartest or strongest don't necessarily win Survivor. Just was 1 of the laziest winners ever, and no one could boot her because she was in control! She deserves props for that
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Yul had a completely unfair advantage that only one other player in the game's history and no other winner in the game's history had, the hidden immunity idol. An idol he won not because of great strategic play, not because of challenge victories, he got it because he was lucky enough to be sent to Exile Island the second episode of the season
HII is not completely unfair, but it is an advantage. It'd be more unfair if contestants didn't know of it's existence or know who got sent to Exile Island. Second, no one says challenge immunity is unfair. It's essentially the same kind of concept, although the HII is clearly better. However, the HII is a 1 time deal if people are smart enough to get rid of it. In terms of skill, Yul found the idol, because he's sharp. Jonathan could've gotten the idol but didn't. Yul wasn't given the idol, he earned it. But yes, lucky he was sent 2nd
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Yul doesn't have the idol, he comes in ninth place, its as simple as that. As smart as the guy was, he was gonna come in ninth place without that lucky break. And in all other seasons but one, the broken HII does not exist and he doesn't have that ridiculous advantage.
Not necessarily. A large reason Candice and Jonathan flipped was because they thought Adam had the HII. Without an HII, they might've stayed loyal. At least Jonathan
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And Yul's only strategic threat was Jonathan, a guy who was never gonna win the jury vote. Saying Candice and Parvati were strategic threats makes no sense to me as these were two of the four people who knew that C, A & J didn't have the immunity idol, but refused to believe that Yul, the sole guy left in the game who had been to Exile Island didn't have it. One of the stupidest decisions in game history. And any notion that Candice is a good strategic player went out the window when she switched tribes to get it on with Adam
Okay, you can argue Candice and Parvati are not the best strategists. However, if we're talking about strategic THREATS to YUL specifically, then they were absolutely big detriments. Candice flipped on the Aitu 5, when she had a final 3 agreement with Yul and Becky!!! I don't know too many players who'd do that. She correctly identified them as her biggest threats despite her friendship with them. And usually, you'd flip if you have some sort of justificiation--even if it's fake. Becky and Yul didn't do anything wrong or marginalize her, so Candice's reason was that they were strong players. As for Parvati, she was the puppet master of Raro and continued to not vote for Yul at the finale
Adam, Parvati, and Candice did suspect Yul had the idol, but kept saying that he didn't because they were worried Jon would flip if he thought they didn't have the idol. So if anything, they were being smart there
I do think Candice flipped too soon. However, she did it because she was keeping thing simple and didn't want to get cocky. She likely felt targeted and misread the situation after getting the vote from Cao Boi at his boot. She wanted to ensure her own safety first and foremost, and I don't blame her for that. Yul and Becky had been questioning her loyalty to Adam and Parvati, so she definitely felt uncomfortable and threatened. Also, the mutiny WASN'T the worst move, because it really should've screwed Aitu over. It's just that the Aitu 4 were amazing. They definitely don't get enough credit, because they made it look easy
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Amber staying at F10 in ASS had absolutely nothing to do with her
No. She persuaded. If she'd said nothing, she would've been sent packin
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It had entirely to do with Lex and Kathy thinking they had an alliance with Boston Rob that was formed from outside of the game, and Rob implying to Lex at the immunity challenge that he'd help him out if he kept Amber. If those two things didn't occur, Amber's gone, no matter how much fake pleading she did
This, I agree with, and I acknowledged. However, since Amber partnered with Rob technically, then through the transitive property:
Amber partners with Rob; Amber = Rob
Rob saves Amber through friendship with Lex/Kathy
Amber saves Amber
Either way, she made her own fate happen, even if she had luck (which again, ALL winners have had)
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Amber did nothing great 'socially' in her season (which you gave her an A for). She was slighly better socially than Boston rob. Who played arguably the worst social game ever. Thats not deserving of an A.
It's not so much what she does, it's what she doesn't do. She is never targeted until the late-game for strategic reasons, because she never pisses anyone off. This is not to be underestimated in the final jury. I can guarantee that if Amber had a more abrasive personality, Romber would've been broken up in All-Stars. 2nd, she picks powerful, pro-active allies and works her way into an alliance with them which requires skill as much as it requires luck. 3rd, she's nice to everyone, and that won her the winning vote with Shii-Ann
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Comparing Survivor All Stars to Big Brother All Stars isn't a valid comparison though due to the differences in the game format
They're not the same, but they're close enough
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In Big Brother, all Will had to do was convince a single person - the head of household to keep him safe, either by not putting him up for nomination, or by putting up a bigger target like Jace instead
Despite the format difference, Tina really just needed to persuade 1 person (Rupert) to save her, because Rudy would've followed. Tina absolutely had a chance, albeit a small one. I'm not asking for another victory, but she was the very 1st boot, and I'm not entirely convinced she was dead-in-the-water from the get-go
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Anyone who denies that their looks were a factor in Jenna and Amber's wins are lying.
I'm not denying it. If anything, that makes them better players, since their endemic qualities would allow them to use those abilities over and over again in multiple contexts. Looks are the same kind of weapon as a male's challenge ability or a weak person's automatic non-target status
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The majority of the players knew that Hatch and Rob C. were the two biggest strategic threats going into the game and when you review how the season turned out, the fact that Big Tom was the ONLY player who made it VERY far both times he played is important. Do you think that ANYONE thought Amber was a threat to win the game?
That's the players' faults. They should've realized that luck is important and that a low or non-memorable placement does not dictate actual skill. Smart players never underestimate anyone. The bottom line is EVERYONE is a threat, and you need to make sure you survive bottom line
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The arguments that Tina is not a great winner, for example, because Mike fell in the fire are ridiculous. Yes, she got lucky there, but we can't hold that against her. That was out of her control (and she probably would have had a good shot after the merge even if Kucha controlled it anyway).
How is it ridiculous? That was strategically pivotal. I don't hold it against her, so much as acknowledge the facts. I do think she'd have had a good shot at the merge still with Rodger and Elisabeth
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ASS was not Survivor on many levels. It included some elements of the game, yes, but the most influential elements (social, psychological, etc.) were the ones that were completely different from what they were meant to be in Survivor. You can't hold a player's viewer reputation from their original season against them, and that's exactly what you do when you factor in ASS
I agree that Survivor ASS is different in terms of the normal political structure of Survivors. The main difference is that in normal Survivors, you scapegoat people for being weak in challenges or annoying at the beginning, and then you eventually start considering integrity, ability, game position, and your own ability to win the game. In All-Stars, the scapegoats become the winners and other high-ranking players. However, that doesn't make ASS any less legitimate in my eyes. The power structure changes, but not the game itself
I truly believe, it's not that the players actually believed that the winners were better, but that the winners were convenient scapegoats. Tina and Hatch didn't make themselves useful to anyone and that's THEIR strategic fault. Maybe there were going to try to float or fly UTR like they did on their 1st stints. They were so worried about being seen as threats, that they didn't keep things simple and just ally with people. If Tina had allied with Rupert from the get-go, she'd have been fine. If Hatch allied with Shii-Ann (which I think he could've done if he wanted) early on, he'd be safe too. Jenna kept things simple and allied with the girls from the get-go. Their lack of commitment did them in
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Any twist contributes to the "luck factor," new or old
I agree, but the older a twist is, the more one can anticipate and plan for it reappearing again. I know if I was playing Survivor, I'd be factoring in potential switch-ems, mutinities, final 3, and other past surprises in my game strategy
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We have absolutely no idea how Brian, Tina, Hatch, or Ethan would fare in a newer season, and we can't hold that fact against them. All we saw them do was employ a successful strategy in an early season with an early game cast
I agree and I mentioned that fact. Certain players who won with more luck MIGHT have more skill than they had to display. However, we can only account for the data that we have right? That's why I also separted the winners in tiers. They can fluctuate a lot within their groupings, but I have much more reservations about them having enough unseen potential to bridge the gaps. I DO think ASS showed us what Tina, Hatch, and Ethan were made of a bit more (still not completely), so we can just disagree on that. Brian might be in the middle tier, but since he was universally hated by Sook Jai, I really think he would be toast in any season with decent players
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Richard would have been a provider no matter what season he was in. He's had extensive widlerness survival experiences that few players have had
See, I don't know these kind of insider facts, so just let me know about them. I already gave him the benefit-of-the-doubt and gave him an A in the survival ranking, based on Probst's comments in ASS, but having it verified is better
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Everone's had naive opponents. Flicka was just as clueless, if not more so, than Gretchen
I agree. But most newer seasons have like 1-4 at most in a cast of 20, whereas Borneo had a full cast of them! Just as ASS is a different Survivor, Borneo is a different Survivor
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Sean was also kept like he was (and the post-merge was played like it was) because the Tagi 4 could count on that particular strategy. It's not good luck to say someone's strategy helped a particular winner's
Hatch gets credit for assessing Sean's mental make-up and adjusting his strategy to capitalize on the alphabet vote. The good luck I refer to is that Sean was another naive player like Tagi and was thus another useful tool in Hatch's arsenal
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Um, what about Kelly's immunity streak? That was Richard's biggest string of bad luck in the game. And what about a female alliance being formed right from the beginning due to Stacy's game plan? Sounds like something pretty much out of Rich's control to me
To me, that's not bad luck. That's Kelly being a true opponent and player like she should be. Saying Hatch had not control over the game, because of Kelly just supports my points that he wasn't some Survivor god
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Because he knew he couldn't. Rich absolutely did not care about ASS. Just watch him. Sure, he wanted to play, but he was determined to do it in the most laid-back way possible
I disagree. He totally came to win, although he knew the odds were against him. Will used the same strategy as Hatch in that Hatch was acting like a total loose cannnon and like he didn't care, when in fact he was totally playing the game. While I commend the versatility and creative thinking, ultimately that strategy did him in. I think if he had just kept things simple like last time, and formed an alliance early on with the ladies, he wouldn't have been the first Mogo-Mogo boot. He'd probably still lose the game, but he could've gone further
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Rich is a damn good swimmer, and since a D is the lowest grade I think you give any winner on anything, I think Rich deserves better. He's very likely a stronger challenge competitor than most of the female winners
I could agree with that. I initally gave him a C in challenges, but after reviewing his individual immunity track record of 0, I decided to not give him the benefit-of-the-doubt. However, I agree that he was never a weak link in challenges and was a good swimmer. Again, the report card was more instinctual than highly thought out
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Isn't that bad luck? It forced Tina to wait to play the "Good Guys" card, which was her strongest card to play
Jerri sucked so she was good luck for Tina long-term. To Tina's credit, she absolutely used Jerri in the best strategic manner. Remember, if I rank the winners low, it's not because I think they suck or got lucky alone. You don't win Survivor with luck alone. All the players were good, and I respect them all. It's just that I think some players have clearly DEMONSTRATED skill better than others
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Good luck or good social play? Take any cast this game has season, and you can find a group of players Tina would have been able to manipulate like she manipulated Rodger and Elisabeth. It's not like those two were some Australian anomoly. Those are just the kinds of people you expect to find in the game, and Tina used them
This I don't agree with. ASS showed me Tina was overestimated in the strategic, social, and persuasive department. Rupert is not exactly a mental giant, and he DOES value integrity, so Tina totally had an in with him--especially with Jerri on the same tribe!!! To Jerri's credit, she played much smarter that time around. I think Rodger and Elisabeth were very lucky tools for Tina. Both of them were nice and non-game centered. According to a poster, Amber had approached them with an alliance after the Jerri boot, but they stuck with the other 3, despite the fact that it was a completely bad game move. I definitely commend Tina for identifiying them and using them. At the same time, I don't think it was the most difficult accomplishment given their natural bond and situation (being outnumbered + Jerri)
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Jerri voted against Coby, not really for Tina
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But that's because Tina organized that. Tina made sure she had Colby's vote when Jerri was booted. That ensured Tina Jerri's vote
I can buy that
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Or her reputation preceeded her, and she knew it would. I honestly can't say that Tina, Jenna, or Rich were even trying all that much in ASS, and I think Ethan was just going day-by-day. All of them knew there wasn't a chance in hell they would win. Hey, even non-winners like Colby recognized the nature of the game and didn't bother trying to change it. That doesn't mean they're bad players, it means they weren't all that interested in fighting a losing battle in an entirely different type of game than they one they had done well at before
I don't think so. No one goes on a show like Survivor saying, "I'm screwed anyways so why try?". It's too hard of a game to just go out there for fun. Plus, no winner wants to let their reptuation go to shit
Also, if someone isn't willing to fight for a victory no matter what kind of adversity they face, I consider that a losing attitude under the OUTPLAY category. The game is all about will. The Aitu 4 didn't give up despite insane odds, and now people think they were destined to win because of the HII or something. Danni overcame ridiculous odds as a winner, and people think she was like any other UTR lucky victor. "Not trying" = bad in my book. It's not an excuse by any means. You should try your best when your luck is bad, not just good




