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S-18 Edgic (editing and logic) - Tocantins

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Trixiego		#4121	[-]
Posts: 16747 (05/01/09 5:47 AM) Kiss me, I'm Adminish Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	JT? The perfect foil for Stephen. What a tag-team. Stephen does the strategizing and worrying, JT does the physical stuff and schmoozing with Deb and Coach. This is the first time ever I wish they'd just give both of 'em a million. They deserve it. Agreed. 100%. Edgic threadjack for a moment (not like it has never been done) but can anyone who feels this way tell me why the "blech" feelings if JT and Stephen would be the final two? I hear "boring" "ugh" "so predictable" (which cracks me up since if it IS so predictable why is there any debate as to who the winner is?) and other descriptions. I think these two are showcased wonderfully if they are the final two. Both have displayed great social skills, both have had consistent edits from the beginning (forget codings per episode, I'm talking presence in each episode with a purpose - showing us who they are, how they interact, their thoughts on things...) they have a relationship that we see was unlikely then built upon, both made inroads with other people, they got out of a squeaker situation with Jala's numbers dwindling, etc. I'm not sure why some people would be so against the two of them "battling" for the winner spot if they are the final two. So many times we have had unbalanced final people - they are such a great yin and yang that I'm hard pressed to know which of these two (if I was on the jury) I would vote for and that of course may come down to their presentation at the end.... I know people have their own personal preferences (some like younger girls, some like strong guys, some like great personality, etc.) but that aside, how are these two so distasteful to people? I think both their edits completely justify their being at the end if they are. That doesn't mean I don't like other contestants still there but I guess I'm not understanding the thought process of those who are against them being there Now back to your regularly scheduled Edgic
getting real		#4122	[-]
Posts: 1701 (05/01/09 7:17 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	they are such a great yin and yang that I'm hard pressed to know which of these two (if I was on the jury) I would vote for and that of course may come down to their presentation at the end.... If it comes to a battle between Stephen & JT, will Erinn keep her promise never to vote for Stephen again? Trix, it's not that I wouldn't appreciate such a finals pairing, for me the issue is how the editing has laid the groundwork for such an outcome. Although I can see the editing pointing to a great story of two unlikely protagonists overcoming their initial handicaps and joining forces to control the game and fight it out the end, I can also see the editing has also made significant references about trust, betrayal and taking the right people to the finals. Regardless of how I personally feel about yin & yan, I tend to think that the editing is suggesting otherwise. To OO and all those predicting that Sierra's edit was not the end-game variety, congratulations. I was way out on that one. However, sadly, Erinn's edit doesn't suggest any follow-up celebrations.
Warrior		#4123	[-]
Posts: 2883 (05/01/09 8:12 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Trixiego wrote: That doesn't mean I don't like other contestants still there but I guess I'm not understanding the thought process of those who are against them being there Now back to your regularly scheduled Edgic Hey Trix, It's because in the Edgic guidelines it says that known pairs seldom make it to the end together. Observations (In new order) 1) The winner may have ups and downs, but is typically not too UTR/INV or too OTT. 2) The winner will typically have a fair amount of meaningful editing and typically won't be ignored in long stretches. 3) Typically the winner is not overly Positive or Negative. 4) The winner is very unlikely to receive an INV rating during the course of the season, and will likely receive at least a 2 visibility in Episode 1. 5) Over the course of the game the winner's presence and visibility should end up closer to the average of all the players. (The winner typically gravitates to near the top in MOR differential, which calculates the closeness to average in presence, tone and ratings). 6) Typically the winner is surrounded by players who keep our focus to distract us from the winner. These players are often OTT and much of the complexity and strategy centers in this core group. This core group can be a combination of members of more than one complex group, rather than all being from one, original tribe. .....old 5) The tribe (or the core group that will surround a surprise winner) that has the most complex dynamics and strategy usually contains the winner. .....old 6) Typically the winner is surrounded by the player/s receiving the distracting edit. 7) The winner will have substantial comments/insight from many of the jury members that may resurface in front of the jury or mislead the audience on voting. 8) The ending is typically set up to be a somewhat of a 'surprise'. You either don't expect the winner or second place to be there. These two are often manipulated in the editing to make each look like they have a chance to win. 9) If two people are a 'known final pair' then the likelihood of them actually being the final two is slim. It would need to be a situation that cannot be avoided (i.e. Amber/Rob)
Trixiego		#4124	[-]
Posts: 16751 (05/01/09 8:26 AM) Kiss me, I'm Adminish Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I can also see the editing has also made significant references about trust, betrayal and taking the right people to the finals. Regardless of how I personally feel about yin & yan, I tend to think that the editing is suggesting otherwise. Okay, I can understand the point re: trust, betrayal, etc. but don't we have that every season? I mean, what's a good Survivor season without that thrown in there to showcase some doubt for the audience. Wouldn't you attribute some of those snippets of doubt, trust, etc. to JT and Stephen though? We have been thrown little bits about Stephen wondering if he could trust JT, we heard JT say (I think, it's hard to remember) that he trusts Stephen so right now I AM questioning if both of these individuals, despite their friendship and alliance, may decide it's not a good idea to bring the other (more Stephen than JT) but that may just be to create a little doubt in a situation where they simply will go to the end with each other. Or else I don't understand what you are getting at ;-) Thanks Warrior :-) - however, wouldn't you say that maybe this is no longer entirely accurate? Amanda and Parvati were a known pairing, Todd and Amanda were a known pairing (although this was a final three situation) - can Edgic really discount pairs altogether when we have seen known pairings to occur? Although I don't know what Edgic constitutes as a known final pair the two examples I put (to me) were known pairs.
I LUV TIJUANA		#4125	[-]
Posts: 12707 (05/01/09 8:33 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I've always thought the known pair thing does not really make sense because the producers cannot control who makes the final two and whether they were close or not. They can hide it a little more if they don't want people to know it, but I think Tina/Colby was probably the only time it's been deliberately hidden from us.
dennydoylelives		#4126	[-]
Posts: 2821 (05/01/09 8:58 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Coach - OTTN A cartoonish villain outed as a liar and a hypocrite. No nuance, nothing multidimensional. Debbie - OTTN Again, barely any nuance to the edit. She tried to paint Sierra as a liar to the others, but the edit showed that Debbie was lying, and scrambling with contradicted half-truths when she wasn't flat out lying. Erinn - UTRP Sweet but unsubstantial Exile scene, and barely anything else. Could just as easily be MORP. JT - CP Straightforward character and game development without editorial judgment. Sierra - OTTM The editing didn't hide her whiney petulance, but it did back up every one of her (poorly articulated) claims of hypocrisy on the part of Debbie and Coach. Stephen - CP Straightforward character and game development without editorial judgment. Taj - MORP A little bit more character development than Erinn got, but really either one could go MORP or UTRP. Winner - Stephen. Not eliminated - JT. Eliminated - Everyone else.
augustus713		#4127	[-]
Posts: 108 (05/01/09 9:04 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Trixiego wrote: Thanks Warrior :-) - however, wouldn't you say that maybe this is no longer entirely accurate? Amanda and Parvati were a known pairing, Todd and Amanda were a known pairing (although this was a final three situation) - can Edgic really discount pairs altogether when we have seen known pairings to occur? Although I don't know what Edgic constitutes as a known final pair the two examples I put (to me) were known pairs. I've always thought the "known pair" thing was more a "game" observation rather than an "editing" observation. Known pairs rarely make it to the end because they usually get targeted before then to break them up (like Nat/Alexis/Erik tried against Amanda). Only in rare instances when the opposition is incredibly dumb (e.g. Lex not taking out Amber) can a "known pair" make it all the way to the end. I don't think this has anything to do with editing.
wallduck		#4128	[-]
Posts: 532 (05/01/09 9:35 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The guideline about known pairs is related to the edgic principle that the editing strives for the element of surprise in the ending (as it also does in each week's ending). Powerful alliances usually have just two players at their core, and it's not much of a surprise if the two are known and go all the way to the end. But a Stephen/JT finale in which Stephen triumphs over everyone's favorite JT would still provide the element of surprise. Since the relationship between Stephen and JT is among the most important and interesting aspects of S17, the consequences of hiding or downplaying their relationship for the sake of surprise would be questionable, especially when Stephen wins. One practical, non-edgical factor that enables the known-pair guideline is the strategic preference of final-immunity winners to take the weaker member of F3 to the F2. But of course it's more dramatic and, to some viewers, more satisfying when the immunity winner nobly chooses to face the stronger rather than the weaker player. It's particularly dramatic when making that choice results in losing. Working backward from the edgic assumption that Stephen wins, and allowing for the most satisfying entertainment, would suggest the outcome of JT winning final immunity, manfully taking Stephen to the finals, and losing the vote to Stephen. If that were the outcome in real life, I'm not sure the editing throughout the season would/should have been much different from what we've seen. I'd call this question an edgic toss-up.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#4129	[-]
Posts: 300 (05/01/09 9:49 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Coach - OTTN5 Debbie - CPM3 Erinn - MORP2 JT - MOR3 Sierra - OTTP3 Stephen - CP4 Taj - MORP2 Winner: Stephen In contetion: 2. Erinn (probably the F2 loser, but she'll receive Sierra's vote - note she said to sierra 'I won't vote for you tonight' and it was subtitled, I think Taj said the same because she voted for Debbie, but we didn't see the same care from the editors) 3. JT - he's just a distraction imo, but maybe I'm wrong so I'm keeping him in my list) Last Edited By: Brazil Luvs Ami 05/01/09 10:08 AM. Edited 1 times.
scepticA		#4130	[-]
Posts: 1594 (05/01/09 10:01 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	One little scene in yesterday's show was quite interesting. Erinn came back from EI cold and hungry, shivering. And Stephen said,"You're cold - here - put on this sweater," and Erinn gushed, "Oh, thank you" as Stephen handed her this enormous fluffy sweater (the sort of sartorial splendor that I'm sure all of us would take along on our trek through 100-degree Brazil). We all talk about how he's all worried and paranoid and Mr. Strategy. This scene showed him also as rather clever (in a good way.) Whether or not it was a simple gesture of sympathy or also included an element of calculation, it shows him bonding with votes... er, excuse me... human beings. And the editors showed it. I do hope that JT and Stephen are the F2, simply because I'd love to see how they explain their games, and how the jurors will react to each of them.
getting real		#4131	[-]
Posts: 1702 (05/01/09 10:20 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	We all talk about how he's all worried and paranoid and Mr. Strategy. This scene showed him also as rather clever (in a good way.) Lending additional support to what you're saying was the scene early in the game when he comforted Taj in the river when she was crying from frustration. Although the actual scene occurred in the recap we were meant to think that it was this gesture of kindness (or cleverness) that led Taj to allow him to 'stumble ass-backwards' into her alliance. Yes, the editing has led us to think that JT is well-liked but it is Stephen who has been cultivating at the social level.
chaperone		#4132	[-]
Posts: 2648 (05/01/09 12:15 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: One little scene in yesterday's show was quite interesting. Erinn came back from EI cold and hungry, shivering. And Stephen said,"You're cold - here - put on this sweater," and Erinn gushed, "Oh, thank you" as Stephen handed her this enormous fluffy sweater (the sort of sartorial splendor that I'm sure all of us would take along on our trek through 100-degree Brazil). We all talk about how he's all worried and paranoid and Mr. Strategy. This scene showed him also as rather clever (in a good way.) Whether or not it was a simple gesture of sympathy or also included an element of calculation, it shows him bonding with votes... er, excuse me... human beings. And the editors showed it. I do hope that JT and Stephen are the F2, simply because I'd love to see how they explain their games, and how the jurors will react to each of them. I agree that it really showed us something about the characters and relationships. I do wonder though how much of it simply was a continuity must to show it - she was shivering and sweatshirtless at exile, then walks into the challenge where everyone else is cold and wet and she has a (bright red) sweatshirt. Now, that's not taking away from all the things that it tells us about Stephen, Erinn, and their possible friendship/alliance, calculating niceties, etc...just wondering out loud. The counterargument I suppose would be that so often the editors don't bother to explain why they're cutting two scenes together to look like one where a contestant has their buff on their hand half the time and their buff on their head the other half...but that could be more subtle than a bright red sweatshirt on a girl who's worn black/dark blue in every scene this season.
fat little fingers		#4133	[-]
Posts: 6131 (05/01/09 12:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ncassaro: I have a mind of my own first of all and don't just use the chart. You can talk, talk, talk and say nothing at all so you'll get a 4 instead of a 5. My visibility ratings are not based entirely on the chart. Not to single you out ncassaro, but your post echoes a practice that a number of posters use. Most of you know my take on the subject, but I just have to say it again: Everyone wanting to bump Vis counts up or down based on "impressions": You are wasting one of the most useful of Edgic stats. To defend Erinn's (or any character's) importance with an inflated Vis count distorts the usability of the statistic. Feel free to do it if it makes you happy, but you can't magically make someone's edit something it's not. And if we all skewed our vis stats this way and that to serve our expectations, the statistics become inaccurate and useless for any future season's predictions. Again, vis count is the most objective of the stats. A character says x sentences/confessionals/TC answers. It is hard numbers that can be compared from one season to the next. Suggestion to all: You can address the "quality" of an edit much more usefully and accurately by the Rating. If you feel someone's brief amount of visibility represents a higher quality edit, bump them from UTR to MOR or to CP. But, don't give them visibility that they didn't have.
taks		#4134	[-]
Posts: 158 (05/01/09 12:57 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: Suggestion to all: You can address the "quality" of an edit much more usefully and accurately by the Rating. If you feel someone's brief amount of visibility represents a higher quality edit, bump them from UTR to MOR or to CP. But, don't give them visibility that they didn't have. I agree five thousand percent that the quality of an edit should be reflected in the rating, not the visibility. However, I bump vis counts up and down from the "official chart" based on how visible I thought they were. As the chart only takes into account spoken visibility and not other visibility (SPV, challenge visibility and significant face time [important reaction shots to votes, things said at TC, being led around in a strategy session, etc]), sometimes I think it is necessary to deviate. I pose this: If Vis count is truly "the most objective of the stats" which measures that "a character says x sentences/confessionals/TC answers" then why do we vote on it? Why don't we just assign those vis count numbers?
dennydoylelives		#4135	[-]
Posts: 2824 (05/01/09 1:16 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Again, vis count is the most objective of the stats. A character says x sentences/confessionals/TC answers. It is hard numbers that can be compared from one season to the next. Not that it's the case here, but there are times when the raw numbers of sentences/confessionals/TC questions will skew lower than the actual impact of the edit. Example, Player A, (say Danielle), by the numbers could be a vis 3, but there are SPVs all over the place about that player. So Player B, (say the crackhead from her season), rants and rants about Danielle, while Player C, (Cirie) kicks back and says, "I'm so glad Danielle is here to take the focus off me." And Crackhead rants some more, with screenshots of Danielle doing an eye roll, and Cirie smirking to her, and Danielle returning the smirk. Another example would be that Player A, (James or Darrah) says little or nothing, (0, 1, 2 sentences), but is heavily featured during challenges, and gets a decent amount of SPV, and screenshots supporting the SPV. So "James really works his ass off" with a montage of him knocking down trees for firewood, hunting down wild boar with his bare hands, and delivering a cheetah's baby will raise his visibility when his only verbal interaction is a monosyllabic grunt or two. Or "I don't think Darrah's all there" with repeated shots of her looking slack jawed inserted into action could slightly raise her visibility above the hard numbers.
scepticA		#4136	[-]
Posts: 1595 (05/01/09 1:40 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	SPVs might count, like that odd Eliza ep on Vanuatu when she said like 4 sentences but had a couple of dozen SPVs. She was the focus of attention in the last half of the show, yet spoke nary a word. A 1 visibility just didnt' make sense. I have no problem with someone on the cusp of 1 and 2 being moved up to 2 or down to 1 based on an impression or SPVs. But this season I've seen people with solid 2's get 4 ratings by some people. That's absurd. (Those folks on edgic tend to have absurd ratings overall.) Re chap's comments about the red sweater. Yes, they would have had to explain the red sweater somehow, but they could have just shown her putting it on, or just have JP's "Erinn back from EI" over a shot of Erinn in the sweater. They instead chose to show Stephen/Erinn. Heck. maybe it was just a nice moment. But a lot of others were shivering (Taj is one giant scoop of shiver when it rains). And Erinn got the red sweater.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#4137	[-]
Posts: 301 (05/01/09 2:10 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Ratings after second watch: Coach - OTTN5 Debbie - CPM3 Erinn - MORP2 JT - MOR3 Sierra - OTTM3 Stephen - CP3 - I thought he had much more confessionals, I wouldn't argue against a 4 in visibility, because he was everywhere... Taj - OTTP2 - her scene with the girl was really an OTT moment.... CONTENDERS 1. oficial winner pick: Stephen (his last TC question was the clear connection to the jury that was missing in his edition, imo). 2. Erinn - As I've already said, I think she's the runner-up, her sentence subtitled telling Sierra she wouldn't vote for her not only explained her vote on another person, but also may be a link between these two girls. Remembering Sierra had already commented on Erinn in the beginning of Episode 3. Is it a jury connection? I really don't know but it could be. I don't believe in JT/Stephen as the final 2, which means nothing 3. JT - I don't think he will win, though, I don't feel safe to completely eliminate him Last Edited By: Brazil Luvs Ami 05/01/09 3:44 PM. Edited 2 times.
cindidindi76		#4138	[-]
Posts: 17462 (05/01/09 3:54 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I really think Stephen wins. Last season, the Onions were focused on even though they started to get massacred right before the merge. It seemed like one of the Fang "misfits" were going to win and that the focus on the Kota 5 was pointless. Except to a few very astute posters who pointed out that if a Fang won they wouldn't have gotten the "suckiest tribe ever to suck" edit. I get the whole "known pair/surprise" thing, but if JT/Stephen get to the F2, and one of them chooses the other over Taj, who would be an easier win, they would want the viewer to know why. And sometimes, good story is good story, and they may think that the country boy and city slicker bonding and getting to the end together against all odds is a good story.
fat little fingers		#4139	[-]
Posts: 6132 (05/01/09 3:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	However, I bump vis counts up and down from the "official chart" based on how visible I thought they were. As the chart only takes into account spoken visibility and not other visibility (SPV, challenge visibility and significant face time [important reaction shots to votes, things said at TC, being led around in a strategy session, etc]), sometimes I think it is necessary to deviate. Agreed, taks. But, we still can have concrete numbers of SPVs or specific non-verbal shots. But, as scepticA points out, they need to be pretty significant to affect the count. ddl: I understand what you're saying, but you have to admit, those are pretty weak characters to use for arguing for bumping up visibility. Danielle, James and Darrah weren't winners. And Darrah, well, bumping her vis count up still leaves her as the original neglected edit poster child. The argument for boosting someone's Vis count may hold for a Danni winner, (of which there has been, exactly, one), with such things as Stepha-me's, "She's a cool chick.", near the end of the season. But, even Bob's edit doesn't benefit. When Bob was commented on or spoke, it may have served his win (in retrospect). But when the camera was off Bob, it was very off Bob. Ultra UTR Winners Both ultra UTR winners would have been best spotted by looking at the overall season's odd, unsatisfying pattern, than at the winner's edit (or what little there was) itself. This season has not had the hair-pulling confusion that those two season's caused Edgicers. Therefore, trying to reinforce a character's edit with winks, eyebrow raises and challenge SPV is not gonna be useful this season. (Unlike how it helped me call Amanda's brilliantly underplayed China win!!)
craig		#4140	[-]
Posts: 15570 (05/01/09 4:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Amanda and Parvati were a known pairing, Todd and Amanda were a known pairing (although this was a final three situation) Those pairs were hidden with lots of doubt. We saw Amanda get upset with Todd and distrusting him, we saw her get livid with Parvati at the merge, we saw Amanda blindsided by Ozzy's boot. Even early in Micronesia, Parv was paired with James and she had more one-on-one scenes with Eliza than Amanda. If Stepehn\JT were F2, wouldn't they play up Stephen relationship with Taj\Erinn more, or have one of them musing about taking a goat?

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