S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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Phoenix1269		#5101	[-]
Posts: 388 (12/21/08 10:26 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	regarding all this hoo-haa about whether so-and-so should be allowed to post or not...blah blah personally... i think everyone's opinion is valid and useful. I like posts that show a different point of view from my own, because it makes me think about what i've seen and whether or not i am being biased about someone in my ratings. Not that it helped me this year... i never resolved bob's role in my head. I never saw him as the winner though, except for flippantly like how scepticA posted about the "tree of knowledge". And while i didn't agree with astro's take on corrine, it was still interesting to see someone trying to find a different answer than just hopping on the bandwagon. In retrospect, I see now that Marcus' edit was really the big distraction from Bob on Kota. Marcus and Gary had that in common... they were the big distraction from the real, UTR winner. Marcus from being the leader of Bob's Tribe, and Gary for being the sportstar that Danni recognized. When Marcus got voted off... the question that we should have asked, but didn't... was WHY was Marcus pushed up by the editors? Who was he hiding? Who was in his shadow? Anyway... random thoughts from a quick scan of the comments. BTW... some really excellent discussion. Hopefully, in the next few days I'll have a window in which I want to tabulate & summarize all of the really great ideas and points that have been discussed / tossed around over the last week. Oh yeah...someone asked whether we should let Astro continue voting... for your info... Both Astro and Blake are regularly in the top 10 from the mean for voting on ratings each week. This means that they are both consistently voting within the majority. Since we had an average of 20 to 21 voters... i'd say that is pretty damn good. eta: spelling Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 12/21/08 10:28 PM. Edited 1 times.
NickF227		#5102	[-]
Posts: 5630 (12/21/08 11:21 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Phoenix1269 wrote: I like posts that show a different point of view from my own, because it makes me think about what i've seen and whether or not i am being biased about someone in my ratings. Not that it helped me this year... i never resolved bob's role in my head. I never saw him as the winner though, except for flippantly like how scepticA posted about the "tree of knowledge". And while i didn't agree with astro's take on corrine, it was still interesting to see someone trying to find a different answer than just hopping on the bandwagon. Everyone ignoring me when I said after Paloma's boot that Marcus's edit was a great fall, not a winner's edit </3.
astroline		#5103	[-]
Posts: 1929 (12/21/08 11:30 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Phoenix1269 wrote: And while i didn't agree with astro's take on corrine, it was still interesting to see someone trying to find a different answer than just hopping on the bandwagon. Oh yeah...someone asked whether we should let Astro continue voting... for your info... Both Astro and Blake are regularly in the top 10 from the mean for voting on ratings each week. This means that they are both consistently voting within the majority. Since we had an average of 20 to 21 voters... i'd say that is pretty damn good. Thank you for everything, Phoenix, but thank you for this in particular. I really appreciate your support. I hope this can put some of my haters to rest (well, maybe for an hour or two). I might be wrong a lot of times, but I'm not afraid to try (like Susie said, "just to try" is so important!) different viewpoints and different winner picks. Some people on here, whose main contributions to this thread is solely just for complaining and bashing non-conforming posters like myself, wouldn't understand this, but that's fine. I'm going to keep doing what I feel. And in a season where we ALL got it wrong, who cares who picked who? None of us picked Bob, and that's all that matters. Picking Marcus or Kenny or Corinne makes no difference, they all lost and we all got tricked. I wasn't the only one. Although I'm sure that's how it'll be remembered as. "Oh yeah, Gabon! When we all picked Marcus & Kenny and that idiot Astro picked Corinne for 3 weeks. What a loser!"
Casey333		#5104	[-]
Posts: 673 (12/21/08 11:33 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I might be wrong a lot of times, but I'm not afraid to try (like Susie said, "just to try" is so important!) different viewpoints and different winner picks. Translation: "I'm an attention whore."
Green Coffee		#5105	[-]
Posts: 151 (12/21/08 11:37 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: One lession that ep.2 chart should teach - how freaking screwed and biased visibility and our measures of it are towards the tribe that goes to TC. It blinds us to people on the winning tribe. S13 Yul was #1 pick ep.1, he slipped to #4 after Aitu won a couple iCs and he got UTR1. S16 Parv was #1 pick ep.1, she began to slip after ep.5-7 avoiding TC. S17 Kota wins 6/7 ICs, only Marcus (their Tom W) gets emough Vis to remain edgicking viable according to edgic orthodoxy Something is wrong with this part of edgic. Have you missed all of my posts on this issue or are you just ignoring them? The measures are fine and accurately represent the amount of visibility players have. The interpretation is flawed. A 1 visibility is a 1 visibility no matter what. How we interpret a 1 visibility is what should change based on whether or not a player goes to TC. The only tweaks to visibility I think are needed are the addition of SPV (the word visibility is part of the term!) and consideration of major challenge call-outs/individual performances, etc. Neither of these would alter what visibility is meant to capture in a basic sense - how much the person was in the episode. Changing the numbers themselves based on TC or not makes objective interpretation more difficult - not easier.
OnlyTheHunter		#5106	[-]
Posts: 1910 (12/21/08 11:38 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Not a lot of time to post but here's some rankings from me. I expect fewer than usual votes for the finale. Remember, you vote for the players still playing. Kenny and Matty's jury performaces don't count. Not that they'd change the following. Kenny - OTTN2 - an one dimensional fool, as soon as he "trusts" Sugar, we are reminded it's foolish. He was a final impediment. The N was manipulated to accentuate Sugar's choices. Not sure why he'd think harping on Bob's deal at TC before he's voted out would help. I don't know if I can comprehend anything he said the entire episode. Matty. - MORP3 - a perfect rating for a guy who was really just MOR. We really never got anything about his game - he made moves with no explanantion given time and again. He was in the end the nice guy who didn't win, and more a sweetheart than anything. Sugar - CPM5 - CP, yes, in that insane was she presented information. Mixed, yes, as she might have felt bad for cutting out Kenny and wanted good to prevail, but he lack of concern about winning was palpable. I talked to at least 10 people who watched the finale, all complained that she didn't even want to win. Her losing was explained perfectly. She rates up there as one of the most manipulated edits ever, and necessarily so I guess. I couldn't stand her much at all by the end, but I think she played well, which is also what I think the edit went for. Susie - CPM4 - I don't know, I almost said OTT and then MOR. The tone is easier, she's spunkily won immunity and we loved it, then she couldn't shut up and we wished she did. She tried, but as always, came up short, in the game and in the edit. Bob - CPP4 - Of course P and CP since we heard his whole game. There was seemingly little to it, but his exact path to victory was laid out. He got "mad" at Susie but when she brought it up at TC I'd forgotten about it. (To be fair, I watched it in disjointed fashion with a break, as I posted that night, but still...) Winner - Kenn...scratch that! Phoenix just said two things I wanted to comment on. And while i didn't agree with astro's take on corrine, it was still interesting to see someone trying to find a different answer than just hopping on the bandwagon. From my opinion, the only dissent I have is that trying to find a different answer must include applying Edgic to it, and Corrine just didn't. I have no issue with astro at all and I know he tries hard. I only have suggested using Edgic instead of (seemingly to me) ignoring issues with it just to pick someone different. I am not concerned about the gender stuff, just that I note that often the people who want to be different pick a younger, attractive female on a very consistent basis. That's all. And also When Marcus got voted off... the question that we should have asked, but didn't... was WHY was Marcus pushed up by the editors? Who was he hiding? Who was in his shadow? Now that's interesting. I recall at the time that immediately, Kenny was in the boat and that was that. That's on my list of things to think about. Michael PS TO PHOENIX - I think my votes were received by you...I got an error, probably because I didn't enter a winner pick. (Did I need to? Can I write in Todd again? :-) Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 12/21/08 11:43 PM. Edited 1 times.
Oowatanite		#5107	[-]
Posts: 6633 (12/21/08 11:49 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Katy Carney wrote: It surprises me that someone who picked their fav Alexis as a winner would be so harsh. How quickly we forget. Alexis had the best edgic edit of the fans. She had a good edit in Ep1 and in the merge Ep, two important episodes each season. She was UTR after the switch, just like Parvati, since their tribe didn't go to TC. Most of the fans had sucky edits, as the early episodes were dominated by the Faves. I had originally thought that "of course the faves would dominate the shows" but I mistakenly thought that they were the distraction from her win. Alexis was a legitimate Edgic pic. And please, don't bring up that ridiculous and inaccurate INV she got after the merge, when some edgicers purposely voted INV to remove her from the winners list (OTH backs me up on this), despite her being shown on EI with Ozzy and having the SPV about why she was selected by the other tribe. Plus "your pick was still stupid!" is a dumb thing to say when everyone was wrong MULTIPLE times this season. Especially considering the very guidelines they cited were proven wrong this very season, and so it was actually NOT a good reason to discredit their picks. Once again, *Edgic's failure with the Marcus and Kenny picks DOES NOT EXCUSE those who stupidly supported Corinne and Sugar and Crystal.* Could Corinne had won this season ? Or Susie ? Or Crystal ? Or Sugar ? Or Randy ? Or anyone ? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Based on the guidelines, Marcus and then Kenny were the best Edgic picks. Based on the guidelines, Corinne and Susie and Sugar and Randy and even Bob were NOT legitimate Edgic pics. The fact that Marcus and Kenny did not win does not legitimize BAD Edgic picks like Corinne and Sugar etc. etc.
Kitty Pryde1		#5108	[-]
Posts: 7639 (12/21/08 11:51 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	That was something I thought of too. I mean, look at the past editting trends of players who get screwed by twists. Jenny, double boot, completely ignored. Michelle, fake merge tribe swap, under the radar. Aaron, never had a chance tribe swap, bland and uncared about compared to the rest of his tribe. So when Marcus got booted via the tribe swap, it made me wonder..."Why was he not hidden or made negative so that we wouldn't feel bad about him getting screwed over?" It makes sense knowing now that Bob won, because were SUPPOSED to feel bad and to think that Bob would have to fight harder.
Kitty Pryde1		#5109	[-]
Posts: 7640 (12/21/08 11:54 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Katy Carney wrote: It surprises me that someone who picked their fav Alexis as a winner would be so harsh. How quickly we forget. Alexis had the best edgic edit of the fans. She had a good edit in Ep1 and in the merge Ep, two important episodes each season. She was UTR after the switch, just like Parvati, since their tribe didn't go to TC. Most of the fans had sucky edits, as the early episodes were dominated by the Faves. I had originally thought that "of course the faves would dominate the shows" but I mistakenly thought that they were the distraction from her win. Alexis was a legitimate Edgic pic. And please, don't bring up that ridiculous and inaccurate INV she got after the merge, when some edgicers purposely voted INV to remove her from the winners list (OTH backs me up on this), despite her being shown on EI with Ozzy and having the SPV about why she was selected by the other tribe. One, Tracy had the best edit of the fans. She just happened to be a pre-merge boot. Two, Alexis' INV was completely legit given that she was completely ignored during the Exile Island segment when it was actually shown. And the SPV had to be shown. It was reporting, otherwise there'd be no reason to pick her over Jason and the viewers would be confused. Alexis' INV was no different from giving Denise an INV in the merge. She had SOME screentime, but it was forgetable and negligible, given the small number of castaways left in the game.
Oowatanite		#5110	[-]
Posts: 6634 (12/22/08 12:04 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sugar ..... I talked to at least 10 people who watched the finale, all complained that she didn't even want to win. Her losing was explained perfectly. She rates up there as one of the most manipulated edits ever, and necessarily so I guess. I couldn't stand her much at all by the end, but I think she played well, which is also what I think the edit went for. OTH, it goes much further than that. Post-finale interviews suggest that CBS/SEG "hired" mactress Sugar to add drama and entertainment to the show. She fully admitted not playing to win, so we had blindsides of the "bad guys" (Ace, Randy, Crystal, Kenny), most of whom were her allies at some point, and saving the ultimate "good guy" so he could win in the end. In return for her "help", Sugar got a manipulated sweetheart edit plus apparently some sort of "deal with CBS, post-Gabon. I expect to see her in a walk-on role on Two And A Half Men. It speaks VOLUMES that Probst could have easily said that Bob had the most votes for Fave Survivor but he was the winner, so Sugar gets the extra $100,000 as the second-place vote-getter, but Probst did not do this.
Oowatanite		#5111	[-]
Posts: 6635 (12/22/08 12:08 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Oowatanite wrote: Katy Carney wrote: It surprises me that someone who picked their fav Alexis as a winner would be so harsh. How quickly we forget. Alexis had the best edgic edit of the fans. She had a good edit in Ep1 and in the merge Ep, two important episodes each season. She was UTR after the switch, just like Parvati, since their tribe didn't go to TC. Most of the fans had sucky edits, as the early episodes were dominated by the Faves. I had originally thought that "of course the faves would dominate the shows" but I mistakenly thought that they were the distraction from her win. Alexis was a legitimate Edgic pic. And please, don't bring up that ridiculous and inaccurate INV she got after the merge, when some edgicers purposely voted INV to remove her from the winners list (OTH backs me up on this), despite her being shown on EI with Ozzy and having the SPV about why she was selected by the other tribe. One, Tracy had the best edit of the fans. She just happened to be a pre-merge boot. Two, Alexis' INV was completely legit given that she was completely ignored during the Exile Island segment when it was actually shown. And the SPV had to be shown. It was reporting, otherwise there'd be no reason to pick her over Jason and the viewers would be confused. Alexis' INV was no different from giving Denise an INV in the merge. She had SOME screentime, but it was forgetable and negligible, given the small number of castaways left in the game. Tracy did not have the best edit for the fans, once she got her unquestionable INV in Ep THREE.
Katy Carney		#5112	[-]
Posts: 3058 (12/22/08 12:10 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Katy Carney wrote: It surprises me that someone who picked their fav Alexis as a winner would be so harsh. How quickly we forget. Alexis had the best edgic edit of the fans. She had a good edit in Ep1 and in the merge Ep, two important episodes each season. She was UTR after the switch, just like Parvati, since their tribe didn't go to TC. Most of the fans had sucky edits, as the early episodes were dominated by the Faves. I had originally thought that "of course the faves would dominate the shows" but I mistakenly thought that they were the distraction from her win. Alexis was a legitimate Edgic pic. And please, don't bring up that ridiculous and inaccurate INV she got after the merge, when some edgicers purposely voted INV to remove her from the winners list (OTH backs me up on this), despite her being shown on EI with Ozzy and having the SPV about why she was selected by the other tribe. According to you she was a legitimate edgic pick. Many other people thought your support of her was ridiculous and fanboyish. Does that make you wrong or stupid? Or is just a difference of opinions? Once again, *Edgic's failure with the Marcus and Kenny picks DOES NOT EXCUSE those who stupidly supported Corinne and Sugar and Crystal.* Could Corinne had won this season ? Or Susie ? Or Crystal ? Or Sugar ? Or Randy ? Or anyone ? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Based on the guidelines, Marcus and then Kenny were the best Edgic picks. Based on the guidelines, Corinne and Susie and Sugar and Randy and even Bob were NOT legitimate Edgic pics. The fact that Marcus and Kenny did not win does not legitimize BAD Edgic picks like Corinne and Sugar etc. etc. lol. I'm going to ignore the obnoxious giant bolded font and just reply normally. Bob win should make you reevaluate what it means to be a "legitimate" edgic pick. The purpose as I understand it is not to follow the guidelines like they're the Bible of editting even if it ends up being wrong, but to use the guidelines as a general guide to pick the winner. Those SUBJECTIVE ratings that some people ignored to pick the winner could have produced a correct winner pick in Bob, so what is "stupid" or illegitimate is the guidelines, not the people ignoring them. They didn't work. What you're saying is nonsensical. You're saying someone was stupid not to follow a road that leads off a cliff. You can disagree with craig or astro or anyone without calling them stupid fanboys. I don't understand what's so confusing about it. Did you like it when people made fun of you for picking Alexis?
Oowatanite		#5113	[-]
Posts: 6636 (12/22/08 12:21 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	1. I never backed an Alexis win in the Edgic thread. I backed no winner because I read spoilers. 2. You must be thinking of the spoiler threads where I was sometimes attacked by the same dumbasses who also attacked my Todd pick but had egg on their faces later. My Alexis backing was not even close in volume to my Todd backing, so it was just sour grapes for these few dumbasses. 3. I never called Craig and Astro "stupid fanboys", I just called them out on their ridiculous Corinne support. 4. Bob's win is probably just an anomaly like Danni's win was. Otherwise we have to change so many Edgic guidelines that pretty much no one can be written off edgically. What's the point of watering down the guidelines for a Bob-type winner ?
Katy Carney		#5114	[-]
Posts: 3060 (12/22/08 12:24 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm not suggesting watering down anything, I'm suggesting more open mindedness, more debate and less use of the words "delusional" and "stupid" when describing someone else's point of view.
BlakeB717		#5115	[-]
Posts: 1272 (12/22/08 12:38 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	What annoys me the most is when people say "There is no way Ken could win, his edit is misleading, way too much doubt, he's too cocky. Besides her first 2 episodes, Sugar is a valid choice. Crystal too, minus all her OTTs. Also I could see a Corinne win if you excuse her INVs" When people excuse people who fit guidelinse better, then suggest other people who completely go against the guidelines, it annoys me, because it tells me they aren't THINKING.
Kitty Pryde1		#5116	[-]
Posts: 7643 (12/22/08 1:08 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Oowatanite wrote: Katy Carney wrote: It surprises me that someone who picked their fav Alexis as a winner would be so harsh. How quickly we forget. Alexis had the best edgic edit of the fans. She had a good edit in Ep1 and in the merge Ep, two important episodes each season. She was UTR after the switch, just like Parvati, since their tribe didn't go to TC. Most of the fans had sucky edits, as the early episodes were dominated by the Faves. I had originally thought that "of course the faves would dominate the shows" but I mistakenly thought that they were the distraction from her win. Alexis was a legitimate Edgic pic. And please, don't bring up that ridiculous and inaccurate INV she got after the merge, when some edgicers purposely voted INV to remove her from the winners list (OTH backs me up on this), despite her being shown on EI with Ozzy and having the SPV about why she was selected by the other tribe. One, Tracy had the best edit of the fans. She just happened to be a pre-merge boot. Two, Alexis' INV was completely legit given that she was completely ignored during the Exile Island segment when it was actually shown. And the SPV had to be shown. It was reporting, otherwise there'd be no reason to pick her over Jason and the viewers would be confused. Alexis' INV was no different from giving Denise an INV in the merge. She had SOME screentime, but it was forgetable and negligible, given the small number of castaways left in the game. Tracy did not have the best edit for the fans, once she got her unquestionable INV in Ep THREE. Her overall edit was still far better than anything Alexis got.
cantthinkofaname		#5117	[-]
Posts: 1273 (12/22/08 1:57 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: cantthinkofaname wrote: Who thinks we shouldn't let astro vote or post anymore? This Blake, stick to your guns. Edgically, Marcus was the best pick, and then Kenny after the merge. Bob was not viable edgically. Neither was Sugar or Corinne or Crystal. Edgic failed this season to pick the winner. Oh well, we'll get 'em next year ! But Edgic's failure with the Marcus and Kenny picks DOES NOT EXCUSE those who stupidly supported Corinne and Sugar and Crystal. So those that think "anything goes" in Edgic next season should spare us their drivel and start their own "Speculation Based On Fandom" thread. You changed what I said. I said vote. Not vote AND post. Which I take back now actually. It's really hard to interpret tone in these postings, even with alterations like emoticons and text effects. Last Edited By: cantthinkofaname 12/22/08 2:09 AM. Edited 1 times.
getting real		#5118	[-]
Posts: 1487 (12/22/08 2:11 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Phoenix said: When Marcus got voted off... the question that we should have asked, but didn't... was WHY was Marcus pushed up by the editors? Who was he hiding? Who was in his shadow? Actually, Phoenix, you did just that. When Marcus was voted off, I remember you saing that something was wrong and that they wouldn't have devoted so much care in tneding to the Onion edit if it came to nothing. Well, you were right. It didn't. The Onions' primary role for the season was to vote as a team, complete with identical triangles on their parchments, to give Bob the win. Should we have seen Bob? Well, in this forum, we often like to hypothesize, ahead of time, about how the winner might be depicted in the little tribute sequence that kicks off the Reunion. We do this to justify where we think the editing is going with the winner for that particular season. "My strategy is to be needed." The above words, were the words used to open this season's Reunion, straight after Jeff's "diamond in the rough" quote which officially justified Bob's hidden UTR edit. The team shown to be cheer-leading Bob as he gave us the above quote was the same group of people shown at the end to be rewarding Bob by voting as a team to give Bob the win. When it became obvious that normal Survivor strategy was time and again completely frowned upon this season, we should have looked at whose edit best exemplified anti-strategy. Bob was one of those people; perhaps that person with the best fit. From the first episode up-the-hill challenge (where he was one shown most prominently as helping his team) to his opening statement at the FTC ("My team strategy coming in here was to use my personality, my survival skills to my make life and your life better... I feel privileged to have spent it with all of you."). So in one of the ultimate games for individual strategists, how do you edit someone who won by hiding behind his team and whose strategy was only to be needed? Even the move which won him the game, helping Sugar have her fun with his HII was presented as giving Sugar something she needed (revenge against Randy). It speaks volumes that the real situation (that Fang was going to vote him off otherwise) was edited out in favour of giving us the impression that Bob was participating against his personal preferences so that he could cash in his credits later. Hence the parting exchange with Sugar that she would make it worth his while. It was all there. And not just with the benefit of hindsight.
YemaGrl1988		#5119	[-]
Posts: 3211 (12/22/08 2:21 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ASTRO <333 One of the best posters of Edgic, BY FAR! (No sarcasm, pure fact)
getting real		#5120	[-]
Posts: 1488 (12/22/08 3:10 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	YemaGrl1988 wrote: ASTRO <333 One of the best posters of Edgic, BY FAR! (No sarcasm, pure fact) Sounds more like an opinion than fact, but a pretty sound one. Keep on keeping on, Astro. We need all the diversity we can get.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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