S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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panurge46		#4981	[-]
Posts: 1173 (12/18/08 8:45 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Actually, she said she wasn't portrayed enough as a bitch which was a reason why I thought her edit was being manipulated. She always seemed quiet in front of others, only blowing-up in confessionals. The editors had me fooled.
Casey333		#4982	[-]
Posts: 638 (12/18/08 8:52 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The editors had me fooled. Which is where edgic comes in. Edgic having rightfully eliminated her after her INV episode. I agree 100% with CSC. Survivor has become so focused on strategy in recent seasons, that when you get a winner who doesn't strategize at all (Bob) or one who strategizes off-camera (Danni), the editors don't have much to work with. Really, how much time can they spend showing Bob working on his arts and crafts? Also, it seems to be an unwritten rule that one member of the final 3 has to get the Becky edit. Bob was the winner and Sugar was a huge character, so Susie got stuck with the Becky edit by default.
9RedWing19		#4983	[-]
Posts: 2353 (12/18/08 8:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Casey333 wrote: The editors had me fooled. Also, it seems to be an unwritten rule that one member of the final 3 has to get the Becky edit. Bob was the winner and Sugar was a huge character, so Susie got stuck with the Becky edit by default. I think it speaks more to the perceived entertainment value of those getting to the end. If they can edit a contestant as entertaining, they will get reasonable facetime. For example: S9: Chris, Twila, and Scout S10: Tom, Katie, and Ian S15: Todd, Courtney, and Amanda (while Courtney didn't have huge visibility, she was memorable - look at the absurd fan-base she has here in Sucks) OTOH, low entertainment value means less facetime - hence Bob and Susie.
getting real		#4984	[-]
Posts: 1478 (12/18/08 9:10 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Survivor has become so focused on strategy in recent seasons, that when you get a winner who doesn't strategize at all (Bob) or one who strategizes off-camera (Danni), the editors don't have much to work with. To those critical of Susie's edit, from her RNO interview: "One of the biggest moves was flying under the radar … When I stepped back, I let everybody be the chief and [figured] I'll be the Indian. … My game plan was to let everybody else make the decisions and so my game plan was to not open my mouth." Any wonder the editors decided not to explain how she came to within a vote of winning but, instead, apparently opted to share their own surprise with the audience? Panurge, as you would've gathered, I was joking about Corinne. Sheesh, what does it take to raise a smile around here these days, other than OO's sarcasm? Last Edited By: getting real 12/18/08 9:12 PM. Edited 1 times.
DarkHelmet		#4985	[-]
Posts: 37 (12/18/08 9:36 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Just curious about something . . . when you folks do your ratings for each episode, do you generate your ratings BEFORE watching Probst read the TC voting results (by pausing the DVR)? It seems to me that if you're using your ratings to predict who will win/get booted, that it would invalidate the whole process if you knew who got booted, and THEN did your ratings.
getting real		#4986	[-]
Posts: 1479 (12/18/08 9:56 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Actually, Susie's non-presence raise an interesting question: Would she have been edited much differently, had she won? Obviously, Bob's edit would've been even more UTR with generous lashings of INV but I'm not all that sure that they would've built up the edit of this type of winner all that much. They might've gone for a WTF edit and I don't think I'd blame them. What would they have done to prevent the audience feeling cheated by such an outcome? Well, it's all supposition, but all the good v evil themes would've been thrown overboard, replaced by some quirky sleight-of-hand to prepare the audience for the surprising outcome. (They would've kept the teamwork theme, lol). As with Bob, this type of winner couldn't possibly be predicted by Edgic fundamentals. Compared to the winner, everyone is a distraction. The winner would so well-hidden, even a search party made up of TLS and Wallduck wouldn't be able to find her among the INVs. At least, and again, I freely admit it's only supposition, it appears reasonable to predict that this type of winner can only be predicted by story/theme analysis.
getting real		#4987	[-]
Posts: 1480 (12/18/08 10:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	DarkHelmet wrote: Just curious about something . . . when you folks do your ratings for each episode, do you generate your ratings BEFORE watching Probst read the TC voting results (by pausing the DVR)? It seems to me that if you're using your ratings to predict who will win/get booted, that it would invalidate the whole process if you knew who got booted, and THEN did your ratings. There are no boot predictions, DH. This whole thing works on the premise of the winner's story being told in a certain way by the editors throughout the season. Put as simply as possible, their edit is tended to, especially through manipulated editing, they are hidden among others who are the distarctions and, by the end, we are meant to understand how and why the winner won.
Green Coffee		#4988	[-]
Posts: 148 (12/18/08 10:09 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	panurge46 wrote: For those who believe that Themes don't eliminate anyone, I used the thematic approach to rule out many edgic favorites. To name a few in the last 3 seasons: - Marcus and Kenny - Eliza (almost an automatic), Cirie, Tracy. (And Jonathan but I'm not sure if he ever was an edgic contender) - Peih Gee. On a personal level, yes, you can make eliminations. However, 10 other people could be making their own theories that point to different winners. For example, I could theorize that the big theme in China is that the Chinese strongly value family loyalty and a collectivist mindset. Therefore, the player who most strongly matches a strong familial connection to China would clearly win. Based on her heritage and her explicit mention of it in episode 1, Peih Gee wins according to my theme theory. Show me how I'm wrong without knowing the outcome. Say I proposed this during the season as an opponent to theories you had that eliminated her. How could you show me why my theme theory would eventually fail? The best you could do is "I don't like your theme and I think mine's better." There's no basis for which theme is the most important one (you say no guidelines and that's how we'll work this). Any theme from any part of the series can be the one. It could be from an interview, it could be from a player's quote (like mine), it could be a Probst quote during the season. Therefore, while any individual can eliminate any player with themes, nothing stops another theme builder from forming any alternative theory they want that is contrary. Extrapolate this and dig deep enough and one could support any player at any point up until their elimination using theme analysis. The only way to compare themes is in retrospect because there is no a priori basis (ie: guidelines, theories, etc.) for which themes are the winning ones. Again, all you can really do is say things that boil down to "I don't like your theme and I think mine's better." --------------------- All in all, I really think this discussion is going nowhere from both perspectives. Theme people are not going to be convinced that it's not Edgic and Edgic people are not going to eschew their methods in favor of theme. At this point I'd personally rather discuss issues in Edgic like whether or not INV works and/or how we can rework guidelines to fit Bob's, Danni's, Vee's, etc. Thanks for the discussion.
panurge46		#4989	[-]
Posts: 1174 (12/18/08 10:55 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Casey333 wrote: Which is where edgic comes in. Edgic having rightfully eliminated (Corinne) after her INV episode. Tell me, was this INV rule brought down from the mountain by Moses? Was it in Burnett's book? No. It is empirical and based on VERY subjective ratings. I dare say that, if this season didn't have a double episode premiere, Bob would have been INV in episode #2. He had a UTR1 rating mainly because raters couldn't forget his episode#1 presence. I think Bob had other very close UTR1 ratings, especially in the crucial episode where Marcus was booted. Bob said nothing, did nothing to save his alliance. I have no problem with INV as a guideline. A winner with an INV should be very rare. An INV automatically eliminating someone? Unless Burnett or God (which to Burnett could be the same thing) tells us it is so, I will always question it. (BTW, that's why, in the later episodes, I defended Amanda as a possible alternate winner last year.) GR, yes I had caught your sarcasm about Corinne. I can laugh along you know. Green Coffee wrote: "For example, I could theorize that the big theme in China is that the Chinese strongly value family loyalty and a collectivist mindset. Therefore, the player who most strongly matches a strong familial connection to China would clearly win. Based on her heritage and her explicit mention of it in episode 1, Peih Gee wins according to my theme theory. Show me how I'm wrong without knowing the outcome. Say I proposed this during the season as an opponent to theories you had that eliminated her. How could you show me why my theme theory would eventually fail?" After episode #1, I would never say that you were wrong. I would read your post with interest and see how it would work out. I would point out that China was a season where Jeff said that the "Art of War is the greatest book on strategy ever written" and that he added it was amazing how it connects with Survivor. I'd point out that Peih Gee was exercising her leadership in a way that countered what Sun Tzu wrote and that, as far as collectivism was concerned, PG was contributing to ZH's division while Todd applauded FL's collective work habits. In the following episodes, I'd continue to defend my POV, point out that PG's family heritage hadn't been brought up again but let readers decide which of our proposals had better value. I'd applaud you if you had been right in the end. Would it mean that we'd have too many themes to sort out? Probably not since people like TLS wouldn't recognize a theme if it bit them in the ass!!!!! Last Edited By: panurge46 12/18/08 10:57 PM. Edited 1 times.
Oowatanite		#4990	[-]
Posts: 6607 (12/18/08 11:13 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well, I had wondered why panurge and gr were refusing to start their own "theme" thread next season. Originally I suspected that they quite rightly did not want to be embarrassed by a desolate thread with posts from only about five different posters. Now I see that their plan is to take over this thread by driving out pretty much every edgicer through their repetitive, long-winded, hind-sighted, self-congratulating, meandering posts that have caused most edgicers' eyes to glaze over before they collapse into a catatonic coma. Good work, guys. I think you've killed this thread now.
Casey333		#4991	[-]
Posts: 639 (12/18/08 11:25 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Tell me, was this INV rule brought down from the mountain by Moses? Was it in Burnett's book? No. It is empirical and based on VERY subjective ratings. I dare say that, if this season didn't have a double episode premiere, Bob would have been INV in episode #2. He had a UTR1 rating mainly because raters couldn't forget his episode#1 presence. I think Bob had other very close UTR1 ratings, especially in the crucial episode where Marcus was booted. Bob said nothing, did nothing to save his alliance. I have no problem with INV as a guideline. A winner with an INV should be very rare. An INV automatically eliminating someone? Unless Burnett or God (which to Burnett could be the same thing) tells us it is so, I will always question it. (BTW, that's why, in the later episodes, I defended Amanda as a possible alternate winner last year.) As we've seen with Yul and Parvati, someone with an otherwise great edit can have one borderline UTR/INV episode. In Corrine and Amanda's case their edit wasn't good to begin with, and the INV was the icing on the cake. If next season someone comes along with a great looking winner's edit and they get a borderline UTR1 episode, I think it's safe to say that person should still be kept in contention. If they get a second borderline INV, they're out. If they get an absolute INV episode, they're out. If someone's edit is lacking in other ways (like Corrine and Amanda), then that person should be eliminated even with one borderline INV episode. Yes, INV is subjective. But the rule still works. If you can't remember someone's presence in an episode, they're probably INV. If they have one memorable scene, even if it's a small scene, it should be UTR1.
getting real		#4992	[-]
Posts: 1481 (12/18/08 11:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	@ OO. I don't think it was mine or Panurge's posts which had the Declaration of Independence slapped onto to them by bemused edgicers. post 4955, here And if you think the Edgic thread can be killed of so easily, you must have very little faith. It's only Kenny that story/theme based analysts killed, not Edgic.
donutsrule		#4993	[-]
Posts: 270 (12/19/08 12:12 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	No matter what you do, I don't think Bob could've been picked by the merge. It's been said that opening confessionals are important, but look at Bob's: "In the winter time I teach High School Physics, in the summer time I lobster, do commercial fishing" Winner quote? Hardly. During the pick 'em only him and Susie got feedback from other survivors. Bob when he said he was 57 got "All right, looking good, Bob, looking good" from Susie and Susie got "Okay, now we're playing stupid Survivor 'cos this makes zero sense. Like she clearly is not an athletic person. I'm so confused, like, don't you wanna win immunity?" from Charlie. Hilarious in hindsight seeing as Susie did want to win immunity to get to the end and Bob also wanted to win immunity and was looking good at the end, but seeing as the editors took out nearly everything about those two up to the merge after that (apart from the Jeff "diamond in the rough" and the "I wanna be in final 3" by Susie) what did you have to go on? Nothing. After the merge vaguely possible to pick Bob out in that he was doing a Chris, but not really.
donutsrule		#4994	[-]
Posts: 271 (12/19/08 12:18 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I dare say that, if this season didn't have a double episode premiere, You guys really did go wrong with this. It wasn't a two hour episode, it was two episodes after the other, you should've rated like it was two episodes. I wish I'd taped how they showed it over here just so I could've told you what the "next time on Survivor" was because we got it as two episodes.
Green Coffee		#4995	[-]
Posts: 149 (12/19/08 1:10 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	donutsrule wrote: You guys really did go wrong with this. It wasn't a two hour episode, it was two episodes after the other, you should've rated like it was two episodes. They.... did.
donutsrule		#4996	[-]
Posts: 279 (12/19/08 1:47 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oh I must've missed that, GC. I saw a lot of "is this two episodes or one?" to start with and then after Marcus got shot down a lot of "maybe we should've rated the opening episode as two separate episodes". If it was rated as two different episodes why did someone think: I dare say that, if this season didn't have a double episode premiere, Bob would have been INV in episode #2. He had a UTR1 rating mainly because raters couldn't forget his episode#1 presence. That says to me that the two episodes were treated as one, hell the whole "what episode are we on?" made me think that. But whatever, you know best.
getting real		#4997	[-]
Posts: 1482 (12/19/08 2:48 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Donuts, I think what Panurge meant by that comment was that, although the episodes were rated separately, he believes people were still influenced by what they had seen in Episode 1 when they were rating episode 2.
Cassidy666		#4998	[-]
Posts: 9311 (12/19/08 3:18 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: Well, I had wondered why panurge and gr were refusing to start their own "theme" thread next season. Originally I suspected that they quite rightly did not want to be embarrassed by a desolate thread with posts from only about five different posters. Now I see that their plan is to take over this thread by driving out pretty much every edgicer through their repetitive, long-winded, hind-sighted, self-congratulating, meandering posts that have caused most edgicers' eyes to glaze over before they collapse into a catatonic coma. Good work, guys. I think you've killed this thread now. I think we're long past that point, Oo. Honestly, I know edgicers take this analysis very very seriously. But it sometimes gets a little too much, with giant paragraph after giant paragraph dissecting things until long after the dog is dead and rotting by the side of the road. I tend to skim over anything that I wouldn't put that much effort into writing but that's just me. I do appreciate posts that are thoughtful and concise and approach from a storytelling perspective. But that's not edgic as strictly defined here. When enough seasons have passed, any rule is bound to get broken along the way and trying to formulate some kind of strict mathematical model to quantify the editing of a show, I think, is kind of Sisyphean. But still, I do understand that kind of mindset, so good luck with it, guys.
Mypoody2		#4999	[-]
Posts: 8470 (12/19/08 4:50 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	You people type too much. But seriously I love reading the novels of explanations and excuses as to why edgic epically failed. Bob wasnt even 4th on the winners list EVER. wow.
Cassidy666		#5000	[-]
Posts: 9312 (12/19/08 5:06 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	5000 rules, tables, calculations, edit analyses and winner declarations.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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