S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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SurvivorLeo

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(09/30/08 11:52 AM)

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Phoenix1269 wrote:
FLF & Warrior...

and anyone else who would like to express their opinion...

the upcoming episode on Thursday.... do we want to call it episode 2 or episode 3....

Just want to make sure the Voting Site and my spreadsheets match what we are conventionally calling it. I've noticed some are refering to the Premiere as Episode 1 & 2 and others as part 1 & part 2 or A & B...

thanks in advance for all the opinions.

PS... i personally think Michelle was OTT... but i do understand the CP.
'll do close calls tomorrow hopefully... the last 36 hours have been kinda hectic.

the next one should definitely be episode 3.

outside the US (or at least here in the Phils.), the premiere was beamed as two separate episodes back-to-back... meaning the first one went complete with a CBB of the contestants voting, Michelle's final words and a "next time on Survivor" clip, and the second part had a "previously..." clip in the beginning and was shown complete with a reworked OBB which had the tribes already separated. so two completely separate episodes.

just pointing it out as evidence to how CBS ought it to be.

Last Edited By: SurvivorLeo 09/30/08 11:56 AM. Edited 1 times.

mfrimley

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(09/30/08 12:06 PM)

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I don't see any difference between that and Frosti touting his parkour abilities and then being upstaged by James. Editors zero in on situations where people fall short of their own self-promotion.

OnlyTheHunter

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(09/30/08 12:15 PM)

Edgician

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FLF said

Editorially it did not "pass" into forgotten and therefore less-important memory. It will stay with her to her end.

I agree. It's not going to escape her. It is important. It's laying in wait to come back. I think it's more subtle to average viewers, but that's the only difference I think you and I have. We see it. So did the average viewers, at the time. We know it lingers. They may have forgotten it, they may not. But it is there. And it's bad for her. Particularly now early.

My only point is relating to average viewers. They saw it but it may pass their attention span when she fades away over two hours in one night.

If you want to say everyone in Edgic should give Neagtive Tone for it, okay, that is worthy of consideration. It was damning for her regardless of that.

Michael

TheLurkerSpeaks

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(09/30/08 12:56 PM)

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FLF,

You are making far too much of Crystal's confessional. It is shown to establish her as an athlete and an Olympian, and that has as much to do with drawing in viewers as anything else. She struggled and acknowledges such - there's no negative intent there (and the tribal edit does not wash against her personally - at least not yet).

Does it doom her chances? Hardly. Were Richard's chances doomed when he starting lecturing his tribe on the first day? Were Tina's doomed when she searched Kel's bag? Were Ethan's doomed when he chose to throw a challenge despite his own aversions to doing so? Were Vee's doomed when she joined with the knuckleheads to vote out Hunter? Were Jenna's doomed when she boiled her underwear in the drinking water? Were Sandra's doomed when she alienated the Morgans on her pirate visit? Were Chris' doomed when he made light of failing in the first challenge? Were Aras' doomed when he started telling his tribemates they were next off? Were Todd's doomed when he began erratically changing targets at a moment's notice? Were Parvati's doomed when she made an idiotic reference to "pee water"? (That last was weak, but I remember people were arguing for it.) Crystal's initial hubris is no worse a misstep than any of these.

Will Crystal win? Perhaps, perhaps not. As I indicated earlier, I think she's being presented as an audience draw more than as a winner, but she's certainly still in the running and in better shape than most.

OnlyTheHunter

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(09/30/08 12:59 PM)

Edgician

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Good conversation, I am probably out until late tonight, work calls. In insurance, a big storm that levels 20 homes is easier to handle than one that causes minor damage to 300, all of whom think they do not need to pay the deductible they chose. Fun fun fun.

Michael

Some day I'll have enough money to hire a typist. Until then, the Edit button is my friend.

Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter 09/30/08 1:02 PM. Edited 1 times.

fat little fingers

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(09/30/08 1:37 PM)

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TLS, to ignore the editorial decision to place Crystal's opening "Olympic advantage" confessional with her 10 pound tennis shoes excuse is no small or passing thing. Of course there's negative intent!
How many out of the entire eighteen got opening confessionals? Who of the three women, who needed to be pushed up the hill, gave a confessional? Every word on screen is there for a reason.

OTH:
I think it's more subtle to average viewers, but that's the only difference I think you and I have.

Michael, we don't base our ratings on the average viewer. We can discuss a casual viewer's take on things, but we base our stats on an Edgic analysis. We supposed to catch those quick, subtle points, not dismiss or lessen their value because the casual viewer would.

fat little fingers

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(09/30/08 1:53 PM)

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Close Call votes for Danny and Gillian:

Danny OTT : This is wrong, but it's the only choice open. Dan was MOR. He wasn't developed enough to rate either OTT or CP, but if I must choose, then OTT is the less developed choice.

Gillian MOR : This is a tricky one. As she said, she didn't have a target on her back, she was the target.
And it's insight like that that lead me to give her an overall CP. But, again, not an option.
I understand the OTT. Her first hour was OTTN. Her second hour had both game-aware and self-aware statements.
But since it was her boot ep, I'm fine with MOR.

I'm glad we're done with this two-hour stuff.

TheLurkerSpeaks

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(09/30/08 2:04 PM)

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fat little fingers wrote:
TLS, to ignore the editorial decision to place Crystal's opening "Olympic advantage" confessional with her 10 pound tennis shoes excuse is no small or passing thing. Of course there's negative intent!
How many out of the entire eighteen got opening confessionals? Who of the three women, who needed to be pushed up the hill, gave a confessional? Every word on screen is there for a reason.

I disagree. Crystal is presented as an athlete. Whether she wins or loses, the editing intent is to bring in viewers to watch how she does. The opening confessionals are only presenting her background as you would expect. She doesn't run the hill well - that's just reporting since it actually happened. The editors can hardly ignore that after establishing her as a world class athlete. So she gets another confessional to comment on it. That's it. There's no judgement assigned to her "excuse" in the editing - that's your judgement you are applying. If they wanted to hammer her on it, the editors could have done so, but they didn't. Instead the focus is on Gillian specifically and the tribe as a whole.

Will Crystal go negative as you suggest? She could, but we haven't seen it yet. I really think you are rushing to conclusions here. This isn't a race to eliminate people as fast as possible.

Regarding your comment about subtle editing, there is some of that sure, but I think we also have the tendency to overanalyze like you are doing here in my opinion. The show is edited for the casual viewer after all.

Last Edited By: TheLurkerSpeaks 09/30/08 2:08 PM. Edited 1 times.

Warrior

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(09/30/08 2:10 PM)

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Bob Crowley INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (16.7%), MOR (33.3%), OTT (50%)

Ken Hoang INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (33.3%), MOR (54.2%), OTT (12.5%)

Randy Bailey INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (54.2%), MOR (41.7%), OTT (4.2%)

Charlie Herschel INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (52.2%), MOR (39.1%), OTT (8.7%)

Danny Brown INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (47.8%), MOR (13%), OTT (39.1%)

Gillian Larson INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (17.4%), MOR (34.8%), OTT (47.8%)

Randy Bailey INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (45.5%), MOR (54.5%), OTT (0%)

Francois40

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(09/30/08 2:25 PM)

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TLS, to ignore the editorial decision to place Crystal's opening "Olympic advantage" confessional with her 10 pound tennis shoes excuse is no small or passing thing. Of course there's negative intent!
How many out of the entire eighteen got opening confessionals? Who of the three women, who needed to be pushed up the hill, gave a confessional? Every word on screen is there for a reason.

Probably right, but I see what TLS is saying: they want to make sure we know Crystal's past, first and foremost.

However, given that, and the fact that there's no way NOT to show the hill climb and lo and behold, who was one of the last ones to make it...GIVEN that, they THEN had to show her talking about it. Wouldn't it be even worse for us to clearly see her struggling to get up the hill (which I don't think they could have avoided showing, given that the whole suspense of the challenge was which team would get up first) and then have no comment on it? I'm sure it IS much harder to climb a hill in a dress (no, never tried it) and perhaps the tennis shoes comment (which does veer into N territory--what kind of athlete EVER blames something on her shoes!) was just tagged on to that statement and would have been hard to edit out.

I dunno; I tend to think flf is right that this comment is probably at least a vague foreshadowing, but I don't know if it's necessarily N, either.

And, my computer has been in the $%^# shop since Friday so I couldn't do anything here this weekend.

guatemala fanfic

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(09/30/08 2:57 PM)

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So what happens with Ken (Ep 1) and Randy (Ep 2) because it's still a 1-1 opinion on each, as far as I can tell?

I mean, if Randy has to get a CP for Episode 2, I can understand that, but I *really* think that Ken should be CP in Episode 1 and I'll restate my post from yesterday again:

Ken: CP
I gave Ken CP for a variety of reasons. First of all, he got an opening confessional that introduced us to his character as #1 in the world as a professional video gamer and as a big-time strategist. He then said that he's very shy and in the game of Survivor, he's the underdog. To me, this is self-awareness of the game and it's definitely a more significant thought than just stating something obvious - it's insight. We next saw him in the scene with Michelle where he gave a confessional talking about the stereotypes associated with gamers as being a nerd, being antisocial and living in their basement. Again, I felt that this was supposed to help establish hsi character and contributed to him being well-developed. He then had the confessional saying he's very shy with the girls he likes back home. More character-development. If you think about it, we probably learned more about him than just about anyone in Episode 1. In addition to that character and personality development, he had the strategy scene with Michelle where he said that Gillian was the weakest member in everything; he knew that Michelle was on the outs in the tribe, and he said he'd rather keep Michelle because she'd be an ally with him. So I feel that he had a combination of character development AND strategy, which certainly elicits more than a MOR, in my opinion.

Edit again: BTW, glad to see MOR for Gillian and OTT for Danny. :)

Last Edited By: guatemala fanfic 09/30/08 3:01 PM. Edited 2 times.

Warrior

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(09/30/08 3:09 PM)

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Well done gf. You have changed my mind.

flf's is right every frame and every word are put there for a reason.

TheLurkerSpeaks

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(09/30/08 3:13 PM)

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He may be right they are there for a reason - that doesn't mean he is right about that reason.

fat little fingers

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(09/30/08 4:01 PM)

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You are right, TLS. Possibly they weren't wanting to be too damning, but just poke a little fun at her "secret weapon".
But, the only thing that matters to ask is, "Is this the way they would edit the winner?" In this case, plainly, no.

TheLurkerSpeaks

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(09/30/08 4:09 PM)

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We don't know that, flf.

What if the final tribal council includes a question along the lines of "What obstacles have you overcome to get here?" and Crystal responds, "Well, I found out my athleticism has its limitations - two minutes into the game, and I'm already struggling up the hill. It forced me to round out my game and concentrate on the strategic aspect instead of relying on my physical skills."?

It is kind of like with Aras as referenced above. He looked awful in Episode 2 when he approached Melinda and Cirie and told them they were the next two to be voted out. Yet it all made sense in the end when he claimed that was his proudest moment (leaving the viewers thinking Aras was an idiot, but that's beside the point).

astroline

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(09/30/08 4:14 PM)

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If anything, Crystal's confessional about the hill would actually be considered more positive than negative. We got a direct explanation from her, as it happened, about why the Olympic gold medalist was one of the last ones up the hill. If they wanted to portray her negatively, they could have not given her a confessional at all and left the viewers thinking, "What is she doing?!", without any insight on why she was so slow. So if anything, it bodes well for her chances actually. At least she got a chance to explain herself.

guatemala fanfic

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(09/30/08 4:33 PM)

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If anything, Crystal's confessional about the hill would actually be considered more positive than negative. We got a direct explanation from her, as it happened, about why the Olympic gold medalist was one of the last ones up the hill. If they wanted to portray her negatively, they could have not given her a confessional at all and left the viewers thinking, "What is she doing?!", without any insight on why she was so slow. So if anything, it bodes well for her chances actually. At least she got a chance to explain herself.

That's what I thought too. I found it to be more positive that she explained that she's a runner not a climber and that it was difficult to climb with the dress. Gillian or Susie sure didn't get anything to offset the feelings of them being "old and weak"

mfrimley

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(09/30/08 4:44 PM)

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It's not like that challenge was that big a deal anyway, considering they were competing for frickin corn and beans. I probably would have loafed too.

astroline

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(09/30/08 6:19 PM)

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True. And climbing a hill in a dress & tennis shoes is NOT the same thing as the 4x400 meter relay. Give Crystal a straight up sprinting or running challenge and she'll own everybody from every season!

3Diesel

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(09/30/08 6:25 PM)

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astroline wrote:
True. And climbing a hill in a dress & tennis shoes is NOT the same thing as the 4x400 meter relay. Give Crystal a straight up sprinting or running challenge and she'll own everybody from every season!

People can make jokes about her but she is a proven winner in a legitimate sport so we know for sure she is athletic. She was in a dress and climbing =/= running

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