S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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getting real		#4341	[-]
Posts: 1431 (12/12/08 3:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Re. Bob, don't fall for it. As a staunch defender of Edgic's prescriptions (), I can only point out that we've known for quite a while that Bob is too OTTP and too ignored early to win. Don't let the penultimate episode sway you that he has a chance. Of course, he is one of the few certifiably edited 'good' guys and the premise that the winner will come from those is the one certainty of the season. But, I trust Edgic's basic premises and don't believe he'll win. Thanks, Cass. Looking forward to having a look at the goings-on at Ponderosa.
getting real		#4342	[-]
Posts: 1432 (12/12/08 3:34 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Venatrix Avia wrote: But in her final words she blames herself. She blames herself for going after Matty. That supports Sugar's edit. She also reemphasizes her loyalty to Kenny, which reinforces her role as a piece in Kenny's game. I am of course not saying that in the reality of the game, Crystal wasn't responsible or didn't take responsibility for her own game moves. I'm just saying that in the edit of this last episode, I think that she was being used pretty heavily to further other people's stories. Her final words are the final pay-off for the instability edit that has plagued Crystal all season. She was shown to be called out by the season's worst player and the accusation of instability was repeated by Probst. She was pretty much eliminated at that point.
RobVanStratus		#4343	[-]
Posts: 7372 (12/12/08 3:37 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I swear Probst in the past has said his 1 in X line before and asked a castaway to finish it for him. I'm not sure which season or who did it, but I'm almost positive he's done it before. So it's not something special that Kenny finishes the line for him. And I'm still pegging Sugar as the winner. From the start she was a huge part of the story and she's been a crucial voter in nearly every round, the one really deciding the votes. And she was definitely CP, maybe even CPP in the last episode. To just label her as or MORP OTTP and then include attacks on her shows that Edgic is letting personal biases against the players influence their votes, and it's been clouding Edgic this season.
Apollo Italiano		#4344	[-]
Posts: 226 (12/12/08 3:40 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm still backing Ken as the winner. It looks bad for him, but hey, odds have been overcome before. From a game point of view, I think Matty stands the best chance, but edgically, I believe Kenny's got it. He shares the one thing that most of the winners have had recently: a string of CP's after the merge. Parvati had them, Todd had them, Earl had them, Yul had them, Aras had them, Tom had them, Chris had them (Danni didn't, but that's only one of the eight post all stars season). Who has them this season? No, it's only been three episodes with definite group results since the merge, but so far, Ken trumps. He has two out of three (and a likely three out of four). Matty has none, Sugar has none, Bob has none, Susie has none. Even if Sugar and Bob earn possible CP's from this episode, Ken still fits the recent trend better. That leaves Ken as my top choice for that reason, but also because I feel he had the strongest first episode. Matty has always had a good prescence, always with at least a confessional (which is something Ken hasn't, like in episode three), and a general MOR trend isn't bad per say, so Matty is a distant second fiddle for me. Everyone else I had ruled out very early on. I'm not looking at the season themes, I'm not looking at game logic, I'm not basing off of preference of who I want to win. I'm looking purely at the created edgic formula and who fits it best in comparison to the past winners. For me, it's Ken. Anyways, here are my ratings. Crystal. My dearly departed. Not much insight on her part - that went to Ken. However, prominent as boot target, and called a bully despite the reward potential for positivity and shown "kicking Matty while he's down." Not a good guy. MORN3. Bob. Mr Amazing is still in the game. He gets an awesome bunch of scenes on the reward and is the boot target, until he wins immunity. That gets him the title challenge hero, always a good thing. Gets around giving Ken the immunity and looks good doing it. Sugar loves him and holds a special place in her heart. The definitive good guy. OTTP3. CPP potential, hell, maybe even PP potential. I don't really know. Ken. The mastermind, no longer self appointed, Matty agrees. Has his plan of trying to get Bob to give him immunity, but it fails. Is shown as paranoid and sneaky, and referenced as "hiding." Not a good guy. CPN4. I can distantly see OTTN, but someone would have to make a really good case for it. Matty. A good guy this episode, wants good people to win. Was kicked while he was down, shown as worried about his position. Was paranoid about the votes, but overall, came off well through Sugar's descriptions of him. MORP3. MORM potential, as the scene about the votes and the reward envy was not flattering, but I think he was redeemed in the episode. Sugar. Wants the good guys to win, but a good guy herself? She holds a special place in her heart for Bob and sees the goodness in Matty. A total strategizer this episode and she flips the game around. CP4. Potential CPP, but I saw her as more reporting what she witnessed: good and bad. I don't think she herself leaned one way or the other. Susie. Enjoys her trip to the Susie Shack and is with Matty. Showed a little insight, but not enough to heighten her massive inexistence in the rest of the episode to MOR. UTR1. On a slightly related not, can we please return watchdogs next season? I enjoy giving the most accurate ratings possible, but I don't have time to individually watch each thing that all the players do in rewatches. They don't have to be tiebreakers; I think a watchdog objectively noting everything a player does each episode will help most of us with making our ratings decisions and not relying partially on slight notes from other posters and partially from our memories. Last Edited By: Apollo Italiano 12/12/08 3:45 PM. Edited 1 times.
Casey333		#4345	[-]
Posts: 491 (12/12/08 3:42 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	After two CP slightly negative winners in a row, I think they're giving the audience a break from that. I expect this to be a "feel good" winner - either Matty or Bob. I haven't even totally ruled out Sugar, even though logic says the jury votes just aren't going to be there for her.
Phoenix1269		#4346	[-]
Posts: 368 (12/12/08 3:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Casey333 wrote: After two CP slightly negative winners in a row, I think they're giving the audience a break from that. I expect this to be a "feel good" winner - either Matty or Bob. I haven't even totally ruled out Sugar, even though logic says the jury votes just aren't going to be there for her. Casey... i'm inclined to agree with you (even though it's not edgic based). I would even include S14 Fiji in this...even though Earl was not negative, the whole season really was overall negative... not too many people enjoyed all the have and have-not drama... and Yau-Man losing was a bit of a blow to a lot of people....
Werwanderflugen		#4347	[-]
Posts: 174 (12/12/08 4:03 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Apollo Italiano wrote: I'm still backing Ken as the winner. It looks bad for him, but hey, odds have been overcome before. From a game point of view, I think Matty stands the best chance, but edgically, I believe Kenny's got it. He shares the one thing that most of the winners have had recently: a string of CP's after the merge. Parvati had them, Todd had them, Earl had them, Yul had them, Aras had them, Tom had them, Chris had them (Danni didn't, but that's only one of the eight post all stars season). Who has them this season? No, it's only been three episodes with definite group results since the merge, but so far, Ken trumps. He has two out of three (and a likely three out of four). Matty has none, Sugar has none, Bob has none, Susie has none. Even if Sugar and Bob earn possible CP's from this episode, Ken still fits the recent trend better. That leaves Ken as my top choice for that reason, but also because I feel he had the strongest first episode. Matty has always had a good prescence, always with at least a confessional (which is something Ken hasn't, like in episode three), and a general MOR trend isn't bad per say, so Matty is a distant second fiddle for me. Everyone else I had ruled out very early on. I'm not looking at the season themes, I'm not looking at game logic, I'm not basing off of preference of who I want to win. I'm looking purely at the created edgic formula and who fits it best in comparison to the past winners. For me, it's Ken. Anyways, here are my ratings. Crystal. My dearly departed. Not much insight on her part - that went to Ken. However, prominent as boot target, and called a bully despite the reward potential for positivity and shown "kicking Matty while he's down." Not a good guy. MORN3. Bob. Mr Amazing is still in the game. He gets an awesome bunch of scenes on the reward and is the boot target, until he wins immunity. That gets him the title challenge hero, always a good thing. Gets around giving Ken the immunity and looks good doing it. Sugar loves him and holds a special place in her heart. The definitive good guy. OTTP3. CPP potential, hell, maybe even PP potential. I don't really know. Ken. The mastermind, no longer self appointed, Matty agrees. Has his plan of trying to get Bob to give him immunity, but it fails. Is shown as paranoid and sneaky, and referenced as "hiding." Not a good guy. CPN4. I can distantly see OTTN, but someone would have to make a really good case for it. Matty. A good guy this episode, wants good people to win. Was kicked while he was down, shown as worried about his position. Was paranoid about the votes, but overall, came off well through Sugar's descriptions of him. MORP3. MORM potential, as the scene about the votes and the reward envy was not flattering, but I think he was redeemed in the episode. Sugar. Wants the good guys to win, but a good guy herself? She holds a special place in her heart for Bob and sees the goodness in Matty. A total strategizer this episode and she flips the game around. CP4. Potential CPP, but I saw her as more reporting what she witnessed: good and bad. I don't think she herself leaned one way or the other. Susie. Enjoys her trip to the Susie Shack and is with Matty. Showed a little insight, but not enough to heighten her massive inexistence in the rest of the episode to MOR. UTR1. On a slightly related not, can we please return watchdogs next season? I enjoy giving the most accurate ratings possible, but I don't have time to individually watch each thing that all the players do in rewatches. They don't have to be tiebreakers; I think a watchdog objectively noting everything a player does each episode will help most of us with making our ratings decisions and not relying partially on slight notes from other posters and partially from our memories. This post FTW. (though I'd have Sugar as CPP and Matty as plain MOR) Last Edited By: Werwanderflugen 12/12/08 4:06 PM. Edited 1 times.
7neves7		#4348	[-]
Posts: 2808 (12/12/08 4:30 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sugar has no chance winning. Where is she going to get the votes? The Kota 4 of Randy, Marcus, Charlie, and Corrine control who wins this game. There is no way in hell they are voting for Sugar. I think she will make final 3 but she is going to get blasted. The only viable winner is Matty. He has commented on the overall theme for this entire season. He made the comment about Eden in the opening confessional, commented on the Elephants in Africa, and talked about eden during the fake merge. He has always given deep confessionals during the crucial moments of the game. My pick is for Matty to win it all. Matty, Susie, and Sugar in the final 3. If Bob or Ken would get in the final 3, one of them would win just based on the fact that the Kota 4 would ever vote for Matty, Susie, or Sugar over those two. That is why it my I think that Matty has to be in the final 3 with Susie and Sugar.
Casey333		#4349	[-]
Posts: 495 (12/12/08 4:43 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The only viable winner is Matty. He has commented on the overall theme for this entire season. He made the comment about Eden in the opening confessional, commented on the Elephants in Africa, and talked about eden during the fake merge. He has always given deep confessionals during the crucial moments of the game. My pick is for Matty to win it all. He certainly has had a lot of memorable moments for someone who is otherwise as bland as Nick Stanbury and S17 Dan. That alone is enough to keep him on the winner radar.
Jedijake		#4350	[-]
Posts: 5318 (12/12/08 4:51 PM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I would love to see either Matty or Bob win. In this topsy-turvy season, it is definitely possible, especially for Matty. However, my gut still says Kenny. The ladies will realize that both Matty and Bob cannot be taken to the finals, despite any kind of emotional gameplay Sugar has shown. She's still had some moves that show a glimpse of strategy. Kenny will connive his way to the finals and easily beat his opponents.
cindidindi76		#4351	[-]
Posts: 13967 (12/12/08 4:52 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sugar: MORP3 The commentary that follows is my personal opinion, not the intent of the editing: what a hypocritical little prig you are. I love you. And I swear I'm not asking this just because I don't like Sugar, even though I'm sure some people won't believe me, but why are some people giving her P's? Is it because if the tearing up with Bob and the wanting the good guys to win stuff? I definitely agree she should be CP this eppy, but was curous what the P's are based on. And even though right now it looks like there is no way anyone left in the game will want Kenny in the finals with them, they may not have a choice in the matter. It's not outside the realm of possibility that he could win the next two IC's. If he can win the next one, I think he'd have a good chance of winning F4 IC if it's endurance. He's a professional gamer, he sits in one place for hours and hours and hours and hours.
10marker01		#4352	[-]
Posts: 93 (12/12/08 4:56 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Watch everyone eliminate Ken because he's evil and then see Ken get the ultimate CPPP5 finale redemption arc <3
TheLurkerSpeaks		#4353	[-]
Posts: 1462 (12/12/08 5:05 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The editors don't get to pick who wins, so no, they don't decide it is time for a "feel good" winner. There are winners that tend positive and winners that tend negative, but none of them are to the extremes. Apparently, the theme theorists have invaded, and they aren't going to leave until the place burns down. Many people aren't even bothering to reference Edgic right now or do so only to bash it. Whoever wins, I hope FLF will follow up on what he wrote and keep people who refuse to let Edgic be Edgic out. Maybe you theme theorists are right: Ken gets dumped at F5 and Susie somehow falls off the planet mysteriously at F4 and we get Bob, Matty, and Sugar in F3 and the jury is so stung with contrition that they just skip the lectures and award Bob the money. Seriously, there's two hours to fill, and the happy group of four is going to have to cut someone out. They won't even have the Aitu 4's luxury of making it neat and tidy in a tiebreaker challenge because only one will be immune (and that's not even considering that Ken could win immunity at F5 or that some may even decide to break ranks to vote with Ken against the others). And what do we have waiting at the end? The bitter Onion jury is going to rip Sugar and Susie to shreds and award the game to Bob or Matty. Especially if it is Bob, that's a complete victory for the Onions so good doesn't win after all. That's certainly no "feel good" victory. Have you all considered that perhaps the payoff on the good v. evil was just this last episode? Good triumphs, hooray, and we can all feel good. But oh, wait ... the game's not over. "Good" doesn't last amid greed and temptation, and Paradise is lost once more. (You theme theorists should appreciate that!) The snake wins after all, who it just happens is the only one with a strong Edgic edit.
getting real		#4354	[-]
Posts: 1433 (12/12/08 5:14 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TLS wrote: Have you all considered that perhaps the payoff on the good v. evil was just this last episode? Good triumphs, hooray, and we can all feel good. But oh, wait ... the game's not over. "Good" doesn't last amid greed and temptation, and Paradise is lost once more. (You theme theorists should appreciate that!) The snake wins after all, who it just happens is the only one with a strong Edgic edit. Good observation... It would be the pay-off for some of the manipulated editing decisions thus far, esp. Sugar's repentance when Matty tells her about Kenny's lie. However, it doesn't go far enough in explaining a host of other hugely manipulated editing decisions. Still, it's good to keep an open mind....
Oowatanite		#4355	[-]
Posts: 6534 (12/12/08 5:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TheLurkerSpeaks wrote: The editors don't get to pick who wins, so no, they don't decide it is time for a "feel good" winner. Whatttt ????? The editors don't pick out who wins each season ? Darn it, I was gonna write to Burnett requesting that an INV caucasian female win next season, and that an OTTNN older man win the season after that. Jeez. Oh, and Ken easily beats Sugar and Susie in the F3. yw
Casey333		#4356	[-]
Posts: 501 (12/12/08 5:38 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The editors don't get to pick who wins, so no, they don't decide it is time for a "feel good" winner. Of course they can. The editors have singlehandedly decided which players this season are "good" and which ones are "evil", and they're shoving them down viewers' throats. Don't like Matty? Too bad. He's good. Like Ken? Sorry, he's evil.
cindidindi76		#4357	[-]
Posts: 13972 (12/12/08 5:44 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The snake wins after all, who it just happens is the only one with a strong Edgic edit. Who's the snake again?
BlakeB717		#4358	[-]
Posts: 1217 (12/12/08 5:49 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	From the start she was a huge part of the story and she's been a crucial voter in nearly every round, the one really deciding the votes. And she was definitely CP, maybe even CPP in the last episode. To just label her as or MORP OTTP and then include attacks on her shows that Edgic is letting personal biases against the players influence their votes, and it's been clouding Edgic this season. When you are the decider, that doesn't mean you win. It hasn't been editted like she's the swing: she IS the swing. That doesn't make you a winner. And Sugar's edit was basically "cry Good people should win cry" Strategy doesn't equal CP. Which is why I'm giving her an OTTP. And she loses. I've spoken to 4 casual viewers, and all of them predicted Kenny to get 5th. Supports my feeling that the editors have successfully given Kenny his penultimate doubt.
fat little fingers		#4359	[-]
Posts: 5774 (12/12/08 5:50 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Is that a bad enough penultimate episode for you, Ken supporters. :) I think this needs to be asked after the final vote count, craig. ;) Yesmar88: This is all so confusing. On one hand, if the final theme is Good Vs. Evil, Kenny can't win, since he's been defined as evil in this episode... But then the "on the finale" part ended with Matty saying "Good must prevail." With that tone, going into the finale how can the editors possibly justify a Kenny win? Not "Good" or "Bad", but "Why" Survivor winning has never depended on good vs bad, or rather, that the winner has to be a good-guy. The edit is structured to make the winner "worthy", "reasonable", "understandable", not "good". The audience, if the editor has done the job right, should at least understand why the winner won. The winner is rarely the most popular player, but there has to be something that explains the win. This was the big problem with Danni and why her win is the one trotted out so often, by those who doubt Edgic's analysis. And this explanation of why the winner wins is typically given to us throughout the season. This is why we dismiss players who are INV (so far just once) or UTR1 too often. (My Edgic UTR1 tolerance is twice in a row). Oo: CL, I think that you're the only one who thinks Sugar has been complex. She's received a sweetheart edit. Like Lis. And Colleen. And KimP. Sugar cries and giggles and smirks and cries and makes faces and giggles and cries. She is not complex. Her edit is not complex. From the perspective of the end game, she has been more complex than many players. She's been the one we've seen sitting before the jury ever since her first trips to EI, but probably doesn't win. Of the players left, Sugar and Kenny are the only two who have had confessionals about their gamesmanship. Sugar has also been given confessionals in which we see the game through her eyes. She has an endgame story: The Sugar as her tribe-mates see her and the inner Sugar that we are allowed to see. The too dumb Sugar, the gamer Sugar. Unlike Bob, we have been given her inner thoughts on the game and her place in it. The winner is typically a bit of a surprise as well, (at least a bit of a surprise that they made the Final 3). Jeff said in the Recrap, "The front-runner isn't necessarily the winner." He of course, was laughing at us for choosing Marcus (Gotcha!), but could his warning still hold up for the final? Kenny described himself as the underdog in his opening Ep1 confessional. Sugar called herself the underdog when on Exile Island. (Well, Exile Pier. Lol) Matty has called himself the "ultimate underdog" for his being the last original left on Fang. Who owns the legitimate title? All three have had pretty consistent edits in their individual stories and visibility. Sugar has her "ep2" INV, but has lots of game comments that relate to the endgame. Many of us have seen her sitting at the Finale 3 for a long time. Matty has better visibility than Sugar, but his comments on his reasons for why he's there have been about Jamie and Eden and not the win. Ken has the total package, especially with the "fresh start" at the merge for the Fangs. Edgic's officially on autopilot, as of the merge, so any running around now in panic over each turn in the story is just fun indulgence. Sugar wins= INV is not the ultimate eliminator any more. And a winner can have an opening episode with confessional quotes like, "There's wild animals...(giggle)...This is really Africa!", giggle... Matty wins= His reasons for playing were enough of a game explanation for the editors: He was the Good Guy who wins over rattiness. The guy who's admiration for Eden and true love saw him through to the end. Kenny wins= Our Edgic assumptions remain pretty solid as is, though we'll have the Marcus/reborn Fang trick to discuss.
sunflower101		#4360	[-]
Posts: 4145 (12/12/08 6:10 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: TLS wrote: Have you all considered that perhaps the payoff on the good v. evil was just this last episode? Good triumphs, hooray, and we can all feel good. But oh, wait ... the game's not over. "Good" doesn't last amid greed and temptation, and Paradise is lost once more. (You theme theorists should appreciate that!) The snake wins after all, who it just happens is the only one with a strong Edgic edit. Good observation... It would be the pay-off for some of the manipulated editing decisions thus far, esp. Sugar's repentance when Matty tells her about Kenny's lie. However, it doesn't go far enough in explaining a host of other hugely manipulated editing decisions. Still, it's good to keep an open mind.... I think that if Kenny was going to win he would have had a more positive edit. I think he would have been edited more as the under dog then as the villain.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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