S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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Brazil Luvs Ami		#3881	[-]
Posts: 177 (12/05/08 12:59 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: I think when there is an invisible you have to look at it in terms if anything funny is being done to it -is there a gimmick. Looking at Tina's, she fell into place not because she had the invisible, but because everyone else didn't -including a single isolated shot (even her intro had her kids in it). We have to look if something crafty is being done. The only thing that has come close that I flagged when it was happening was Jenn from season 10 -nothing, no confessionals - but her opening credits went from first to last in the first two episodes. Kel was also INV in the first episode of Outback... And I just rewatched it and thought Amber was INV too (she has an UTR1 in the official chart) I don't rule out contestants that receive an INV in one episode, because I don't feel that the editors use the edgic guidelines to make an episode... An INV can happens sometimes to the winner... And I know it hasn't happened yet (since Tina), but it may happen one day... And I believe if people wasn't so sure of Yul winning in Cooks and Parvati winning in Micronesia, they would had received INV... Also, I rewatched All-Stars and saw an UTRP1 followed by an INV for Amber in episode 1 and 2
Phoenix1269		#3882	[-]
Posts: 339 (12/05/08 1:05 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TLS... I understand your point regarding Rafe. I can appreciate why you don't use the INV. I don't agree with it, because I think that editors do know where that line is and i think they are cognizant of it and how it can affect their story. Which means that they are careful to include enough info (or not enough depending on the circumstance). Personally, I find the INV rule to be very useful. I have a much lower INV threshold than most people. For example, I did not give Ken an INV in E3, where some people did. I also did not give Corinne her first INV... i felt there was enough there to warrant a UTR. The next episode however, she had LESS than the previous, and so, i gave her the deserved INV. Going back to Rafe... I think that Rafe having an INV actually DOES prove the INV rule, but I also think that the "problem" concerning Rafe is not just his anomolous edit (ie being the only "good edit + 1 INV")... the problem is compounded with the other main problem with S11... S11 was a season of the Loser's Story, and not the winner's story. The editor's apparently didn't have a lot to work with with Danni, so they gave us the only other probable winner-distraction option with Rafe.... which was accuately identified as a distraction by the INV. That said... I have felt for a while now that Gabon is not a Winner's Story, but a Loser's (or more correctly... a Losers') story. So in that regard, a very low vis, UTR1 episode may not be a bad thing. However, 2 or more of these (including an INV or 2) would still be (in my opinion) problematic for the story. I really felt after last night's episode that Ken is looking too much like the winner with out any doubt. It seemed lathered on pretty thick that Ken thinks he's winning... and has now told us so a few times. That isn't doubt. Ken has also told us that Sugar and Crystal and Ken are going to the Final 3... and that everyone loves him. I'm sure he thinks this, but wouldn't the editor's - to show some doubt - have had people taking about how they don't trust ken in this episode? It feels like a set up for a HUGE fall to me. I really feel like this season is a Why XXX & XXX lost. ETA: Another player's "greed" or "selfish" reference has proven to be their downfall. Corinne mentioned the only thing that tastes better than 500 bucks is a million. Randy's "King of Gabon" Ace - write me a cheque GC - chance to win a million Marcus & GC both called selfish when going up the hill for the E1II We also have a slew of "stupid" comments having bitten the dust too... Charlie's "Stupid Survivor" comment from E1 Marcus "stupid people, throwing away the idol" Corinne.... pick an episode...there were many. Randy ... called Fang Idiots in E2. Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 12/05/08 1:16 PM. Edited 1 times.
colleenlover		#3883	[-]
Posts: 8853 (12/05/08 1:09 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kel was also INV in the first episode of Outback... And I just rewatched it and thought Amber was INV too (she has an UTR1 in the official chart) No. At least not invisible in the same sense- no tricks. Amber huffed and puffed -"this rice is very heavy" -both their intros were solo.
Francois40		#3884	[-]
Posts: 2647 (12/05/08 1:12 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Noteworthy evidence for KENNY this time: 1) the fishing scene, where Bob says "reel em in" <!> or something similar at the beginning of the scene. Then we see thempulling the fish in, as we frequently do, but that first part of the (somewhat long, for a non-strategic one) scene could easily had been chopped off. 2) During TC, how many times did we catch his reaction to the votes when he realized he'd been duped? yes, some of that was inevitable, but it seemed like it KEPT going back to him even after we "got the message" that he realized he'd been lied to. As for Matty--the engagement scene was sweet (though I seriously questioned why he would "just happen to have that necklace in his pocket" when they had been told they would NOT see their loved ones--did he carry it with him everywhere, vs leave it in his bag? Hmmm.--but I wonder if that's all the "payoff" we're going to get for him now. Or, he wins and we see just how close he was to getting voted off the very day he proposes. sometimes it's a crap shoot.
Oowatanite		#3885	[-]
Posts: 6470 (12/05/08 1:13 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	there are very few players who have received an INV who weren't eliminated without it This is misleading and basically untrue. INVs occur mostly in the first few episodes. Players getting INV in Episode One are immediately eliminated edgically. Just because their edit sucks in subsequent episodes doesn't change the FACT that they were correctly eliminated VERY early in the season. Let's look at this season. Kelly and Jacquie got INVs in ep1 and should have been immediately eliminated edgically. The fact that more INVs followed for them, plus the two pretty pathetic edits/story arcs DOES NOT take away from the fact that they were properly and correctly judged to be not winning this game. TWO CHECK MARKS for INV. Ace, Sugar and Paloma got INVs in ep 2 and should have been immediately eliminated edgically. The fact that Paloma was soon booted and that Sugar began her manufactured "sweetheart" edit DOES NOT take away from the fact that they were properly and correctly judged to be not winning this game. The REAL props for INV is that Ace could not be eliminated edgically EXCEPT for his INV. THREE CHECK MARKS for INV. Susie's INV in ep 3 followed two weak opening episodes (UTR1, UTR2) so I thought about no check mark for INV, until I remembered that many refused to edgically eliminate Amanda in China, despite FOUR UTR2s in her first FIVE episodes. So, being that the INV in ep 3 put the final nail in the coffin for Susie edgically, I must give another CHECK MARK for INV. Corinne got her first INV in ep 4, followed by a second INV in ep 5. Bye, bye Corinne edgically. CHECK MARK for INV. Charlie's INV did not occur til ep 6. Charlie had a decent beginning but his edit was heading downhill when he finally received the dreaded INV. He could not be completely eliminated though until this INV. CHECK MARK for INV. FINAL SCORE = INV 8, Naysayers 0 Could someone receiving an early INV go on to win next season, or the season after that, or the season after that ? Yup. Or not. Trying to predict when someone wins despite an INV is just as perilous and useless as predicting when the Detroit Lions will ever win another football game.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#3886	[-]
Posts: 179 (12/05/08 1:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: Kel was also INV in the first episode of Outback... And I just rewatched it and thought Amber was INV too (she has an UTR1 in the official chart) No. At least not invisible in the same sense- no tricks. Amber huffed and puffed -"this rice is very heavy" -both their intros were solo. Yeah, I know about that, but Tina was not the only INV... But I agrre with you that she had a special INV...
Kitty Pryde1		#3887	[-]
Posts: 6926 (12/05/08 1:19 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	What I find telling about the Corinne supporters is that Ace got one INV in a two-part episode which SHOULD have been debateable, but he was correctly identified as losing, despite having a winner's quote and potentially having a villainous winner's edit. Meanwhile, Corinne had a debateable INV, followed by a completely UNdebateable INV, yet she was still held in contention. Honestly, if you're not going to give Corinne an INV for episode 4, then you shouldn't have given Jacquie or Corinne INVs for episode 1 because they were given the same amount of attention in a reported scene.
Oowatanite		#3888	[-]
Posts: 6471 (12/05/08 1:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chaperone wrote: I see it as Kenny Sugar or Matty at this point...and I'm going to go with Sugar. Okay, how did Astro get chaperone's Yuku password ?
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3889	[-]
Posts: 1444 (12/05/08 1:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The point is this. Any arbitrary rule could meet the same criteria that you are using to say the INV guideline is a success. I could say, "No one will win who has a "y" at the end of their name in the credits". That has always worked thus far so it must be a good rule. This isn't a valid argument.
Oowatanite		#3890	[-]
Posts: 6472 (12/05/08 1:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TheLurkerSpeaks wrote: The point is this. Any arbitrary rule could meet the same criteria that you are using to say the INV guideline is a success. I could say, "No one will win who has a "y" at the end of their name in the credits". That has always worked thus far so it must be a good rule. This isn't a valid argument. Yeah, but player names *are not* editing choices.
chapera rocks		#3891	[-]
Posts: 9930 (12/05/08 1:25 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The only reason I think Sugar is still in contention is the fact that the editors duped us once this season, giving Marcus the perfect winners edit. Perhaps they are going for a surprise? I still think Kenny wins, but I also think Sugar is a contender, along with Matty. Crystal has been very weak post-merge.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3892	[-]
Posts: 1445 (12/05/08 1:26 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The editors aren't choosing to make anyone INV either. That's our vague construct, not theirs. ETA: It still invalidates the argument that since it never happened, the rule must be good.
chaperone		#3893	[-]
Posts: 2560 (12/05/08 1:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: chaperone wrote: I see it as Kenny Sugar or Matty at this point...and I'm going to go with Sugar. Okay, how did Astro get chaperone's Yuku password ? Ha! I guess Astro and I agree this year? I sincerely have no idea who's vying for whom around here this season. I'm also the leader of the Guatemala Gary bandwagon so don't give my words too much weight. I miss you guys but it's been the correct season to step back and get to build my family. I'm sure either next season or the following that I'll come back into play here more often. And to contradict myself, I also tend to think Sugar's getting an edit that explains why she loses in the finals. But I'm not sure if it adds up to a majority of hate...and tend to think her story's the one that makes the most sense to me. If she can mastermind a Kenny ouster...she'll be in good shape!
chaperone		#3894	[-]
Posts: 2561 (12/05/08 1:34 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TheLurkerSpeaks wrote: The editors aren't choosing to make anyone INV either. That's our vague construct, not theirs. Hmmm...interesting thought. They do choose though to tell certain stories, and in the negative space around others' edits we can see an INV and how they affect a person's chances.
9RedWing19		#3895	[-]
Posts: 2315 (12/05/08 1:40 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TheLurkerSpeaks wrote: The editors aren't choosing to make anyone INV either. That's our vague construct, not theirs. ETA: It still invalidates the argument that since it never happened, the rule must be good. Admittedly INV is an Edgic construct, but the editors do chose to neglect contestants in episodes, particularly the early episodes - when that neglect crosses a threshold (which is in the eye of the beholder/Edgic rater), the contestant gets an INV rating. In recent seasons, we have not seen the winner so neglected in any one episode that they received a consensus INV rating. Hence certain Edgic posters, myself included, believe that the winner will not receive an INV rating is a useful guideline. If/when this guideline is shown to be wrong, I will stop using it. Similarly, I believe that the winner will have a "significant" first episode, which is why I cannot see Edgic support for Sugar winning.
Phoenix1269		#3896	[-]
Posts: 340 (12/05/08 1:47 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	very nicely put RedWing & Chap Negative Space & Neglect... kind of like a photograph or artwork, you don't crop out the important bits, but you can zoom in on them, or use the negative space to make it more interesting or focused upon. and i agree with how you are using both of those guidelines (E1 & Inv). When it is disproven, I'll also stop using them.
cindidindi76		#3897	[-]
Posts: 13754 (12/05/08 2:03 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Her hair was ugly too, resembling her character. And I know this isn't edgic, but did anyone else want cuff Bob upside the head in the preview for next week? He should be glad he may have damaged Kens game, not sorry! The point is this. Any arbitrary rule could meet the same criteria that you are using to say the INV guideline is a success. I could say, "No one will win who has a "y" at the end of their name in the credits". That has always worked thus far so it must be a good rule. This isn't a valid argument. So, using that argument, edgic is just a complete waste. Because if something being correct so far doesn't make it most likely correct in the future, than wouldn't that mean edgic would just be a random crapshoot every season? Also, if Sugar wins, I will puke puke puke!
scepticA		#3898	[-]
Posts: 1454 (12/05/08 2:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	One weird thing about Sugar in last night's episode, aside from her hair... When she was at the little overlook tossing the balls she suddenly looked much older. When photographed from the front she can get all crinkly-cutesy and with the right lighting look younger. But wow - her profile is of a woman in her 30s. Botox won't help. It reminded me of Jenn. She always looked kind of young until she smiled, and all these lines popped out around her eyes, sort of like the cast of 90210 in their 13th season. </snipe>
poop		#3899	[-]
Posts: 37 (12/05/08 2:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sugar is am impossible win, not even from edgic, just think... three of the jurors (out of seven) already said they more or less want to stab her. And you KNOW that Marcus will vote with the rest of the onions. Anyone could beat sugar except maybe susie.
Oowatanite		#3900	[-]
Posts: 6473 (12/05/08 2:28 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chaperone wrote: Oowatanite wrote: chaperone wrote: I see it as Kenny Sugar or Matty at this point...and I'm going to go with Sugar. Okay, how did Astro get chaperone's Yuku password ? Ha! I guess Astro and I agree this year? Oh, there's much more to the Astro reference than that.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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