S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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wallduck		#3041	[-]
Posts: 468 (11/19/08 1:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeah, I would definitely give Corinne an N for this episode. It seems clear (even if she gets the occasional P scene in the future) that the intent is to show her as "the bitch". Corinne was definitely N, but she gets an M because of the brief P scene, which means she was mixed, which means she's M, even though she was clearly edited N. And if gets an occasional P scene in the future, she'll be M again even though the intent is to show her as a bitch. Just another example of the inherent, illogical contradiction that is the M rating.
ncassaro		#3042	[-]
Posts: 294 (11/19/08 1:40 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AndreSurvivor wrote: Oowatanite wrote: I really hope that Corinne gets booted next so we can all forget about this "Corinne wins" bullshit. Corinne doesn't win; both editing and logic strike it out as a possibility, and I don't care if I could get egg on my face. It won't happen; and if it does, I will eat my hat. If any Kota member makes it on the jury with two Fangs, they win, so I doubt Matty, Crystal, Susie or Ken would switch sides. Back when Marcus was our #1 pick, Corinne and Charlie seemed like the types that would might make it to the jury but lose given their INV/UTR statuses; after Marcuth left, their ability to lose was still there, and I now I think she has no chance of making it to the jury either. That sucks. I wanted the post merge to be filled with shifting alliances, but the Fang 5 have to ensure a Kota lockout for any of them to have a shot at winning. I guess this to me is a weakness of F3. There are only so many opportunities to vote people out, and F3 took away a crucial one. People who have no shot of winning if they stick to their alliance (e.g. Susie) also have no shot of winning by flipping. I always dissed Denise for accepting that she would get fourth, but really, why risk it? She would've pissed off Todd and Courtney and Peih-Gee would've won anyway. Gives people less room to play IMO.
craig		#3043	[-]
Posts: 14325 (11/19/08 1:54 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Just because there is foreshadowing, doesn't mean that there's no N tone. Taking particulars and personalities out of the equation, Player A says "I can't stand this tribe, I'll do everything in my power to make sure none of them win." Then in future episodes Player A goes on to sabatoge the chances of all members of the tribe edited as Care Bears. I'd agree in that example, because the foreshadowing is of spiteful villiany against P players. But what if Parvati says "Jason is a loser" and his edit and his fate is to show himself a loser socially and in regard to playing the idol? What if Corinne dislikes Susie and wants her gone, but gets overruled and then Susie betrays her tribe for the more N-edited Fang?
colleenlover		#3044	[-]
Posts: 8788 (11/19/08 2:11 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Susie was told to us by Marcus that she will have to earn her spot in his tribe -along with Randy. And Susie was shown just putting her head down and doing work. Corrine was the one to fly off the handle (according to the edit) -rewatch the Marcus/Corrin treemail scene. The music accompanying it is bumbling, making her rambling a punchline -like she's been a broken record about Susie.
dennydoylelives		#3045	[-]
Posts: 2735 (11/19/08 2:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	A player can also be simultaneously right and negative. See Hatch, Richard, any number of occasions. You have to remember that an N rating doesn't mean that the person can't win. Many winners have had N episodes, and even N edits overall. Hatch, Brian, Morasca, Sandra, Chris, etc. However, a person who is near INV in one episode, and INV in the next is a dead duck Edgically. And that is Corinne's position. P and N edits are generally, (but not always), designed to give the show buzz. That's why Fairplay and Rupert were pushed so hard in PI. If a winner happens to give the editors fodder for the buzz, even better from an editorial POV. The trick is seeing when the tone is too heavy handed in either direction. Neither the P-est nor N-est character is likely to win with Edgic principles. If one does, the principles didn't work for this particular guessing game. But a Tina will generally have her Elisabeth and Rodger. A Brian will have his Clay and Penny. A Morasca has her Heidi. Those are the things that bring a winner to the middle. In that sense, if Corinne were viable, she could have her Randy and Crystal, but she's not a viable winner, so the point is moot. I may add more to this thought later.
colleenlover		#3046	[-]
Posts: 8789 (11/19/08 2:29 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	No, of course you can have positive or negative winners -it's not about tone but content. Richard's negative was different than Jerri's. Richard's was about scope and themes, Jerri's was in the here and now predominantly. All that matters are themes, events to be brought back up between finalist and juror, a sense of reflection on the show as a whole. Corrine, to me falls into the Jerri mode, foreshadowing a future event (vote them off and laugh in their face, own it) instead of an overall them like Kenny growing up, Sugar's learning to play the game and being underestimated, Matty's Eden and ghetto Fang, Crystal wears her suit to adapt...
craig		#3047	[-]
Posts: 14326 (11/19/08 2:45 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	For the average viewer, Corinne's UTR1-INV run should be less of a problem than Vee or Danni's low visibility over longer stretches of the game (especially postmerge). Vee and Danni were also frequent TC attenders pre-merge, unlike Corinne ep.1-6. Situation could be a repeat of S11. There I thought Cindy or Danni might win (despite being too UTR) because of the "strong Nakum women edit" ep.1 and the fact New Nakum was generally negative and everyone on it had flaws in their edit. There Danni continuing low visible right to the end ultimately fooled me. Official Edgic Guidelines are somewhat weak the the areas of tribal or alliance editing (aside from complex tribe theory). Also, they were formulated well before the series of seasons where tribes had long stretches pre-merge away from TC. (Tom W's edit proves nothing - he was the leader, he caught a shark, he'd be a big deal even if he ended up like Marcus.) Yes, it's quite reasonable to argue that Corinne's ep4-5 edit means death. Just don't bet on it so strongly that you close you mind to other possibilities in her edit.
ncassaro		#3048	[-]
Posts: 296 (11/19/08 3:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: No, of course you can have positive or negative winners -it's not about tone but content. Richard's negative was different than Jerri's. Richard's was about scope and themes, Jerri's was in the here and now predominantly. All that matters are themes, events to be brought back up between finalist and juror, a sense of reflection on the show as a whole. Corrine, to me falls into the Jerri mode, foreshadowing a future event (vote them off and laugh in their face, own it) instead of an overall them like Kenny growing up, Sugar's learning to play the game and being underestimated, Matty's Eden and ghetto Fang, Crystal wears her suit to adapt... Beautifully put... I also have to add that with a season like Guatemala, there was a theme all season that nobody could touch Queen Steph. She was riding high all season long. Crystal certainly hasn't been like that, nor have the rest of the Fangs. They clawed their way to the top of the game and I think that is where they will stay.
guatemala fanfic		#3049	[-]
Posts: 3940 (11/19/08 3:22 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Finally back home after a long day. Close-call decisions to come in the next 2 hours.
fat little fingers		#3050	[-]
Posts: 5737 (11/19/08 3:47 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Episode 9 Ratings Merge Tribe (the No-Name tribe) Bob MORP3 He gets the Yau-Man award for using his noggin. I guess it's confirmed: physics teachers rock. Bob needs his own Watch Mister Wizard show on Saturday mornings. Charlie MOR4 Can there be a UTR4? Charlie's quiet and intelligent, which added up to "Not very good TV". Time to go kick your adored Marcus in the ass for getting himself booted. Corinne OTTN3 I agree with Phoenix. If the intent is for you to hate a player, then that's OTTN. The reward reporting did not boost her out of that category. When you sneer that you have a moron push-over like Sugar wrapped around your finger, you are meant to be despised and laughed at. Sugar's whole season has been designed to make the players that underestimate her look bad. Crystal MOR2 I went back and forth between neutral and N. But the TC scene would have been hard not to show and it clearly painted Randy in the worst light. Even though she was the one to initiate the scene with her question to Randy, for Crystal it was a more reasonable situation. She asked for an explanation and got an attack. You don't get an N for standing up for yourself. The rest of the episode was her in the P situations with the now oh-so-cool alliance. Kenny CP4 Marcus aside, if Kenny wins, it will confirm Edgic's basic assumptions about the edit structure. Aside from his geeky speaking style and his rat-in-the-corner comparison, this was a great merge edit for Kenny. He solidified, reviewed, and expanded his story and got praise for his growth from Susie and Randy (with amens from the others). He was given confessionals to explain his every move. It was all I would expect from the winner at the merge. The only nervousness is that it almost seems like too much and I'm still a little shell-shocked from Marcus' too-perfect edit. Matty MORP3 Before this rewatch, I was giving Matty a strong second place position. But, as I watched, He slipped farther and farther away. Matty's story has been constant anxiety and statements of despair. His problem was always Fang, Fang, Fang. And his story doesn't change with the merge. He's still all about his anxiety, but where is his story about his plans to win? Even his statements to Ace were about the merge, not the win. Kenny tells him he missed him and is glad to be reunited, but who looks the stronger to us? Kenny. We never see Matty making a move. He's never giving any of the confessionals about the game, except to say after eating, everyone has started to strategize again. Crystal and Kenny make moves. Corinne and Charlie make moves, but I don't remember a single scene or comment from Matty. Randy OTTN4 Randy is completely OTTN now. His story is looking back to GC! Like Matty, his talk is about how bad Fang was before. Sugar MORP3 At TC Sugar says that she knows everyone, but they don't know her. She continues to be shown as thoughtful and on the side of Right. She cries when she has to be mean, but she never gives hypocritical confessionals like Pearl Island's Lil. She's still my pick for the sweetheart who gets herself to the F-3 or even F-2. If Kenny has anyone who I would think might surprise Edgic and be the winner, it's Sugar. But, the key ingredient she seems to lack is a cohesive story about how she gets there. Mind you, at this point Sandra was running on the simple but effective plan of "anybody but me." Susie UTR1 The "old mom" is doing alright! That she dumped the Golden Alliance for the Goof Troop Alliance was a move many in past season's couldn't bring themselves to make and they paid for it. Winner pick: Kenny Still in the running (sort of): Matty: His edit is a one-note repetition of his hopeless struggle. He's a great guy but he's all about his tough situation. Still, he's statistically possible. Sugar: She's got an INV in the second hour of the Opener. And as long as we've used it, the INVs continue to suffer 100% elimination. But, she's also got lots of development for the very end-game and INV is our rule, not the editor's. P.S.: I loved Matty's confessional during the pre-TC scenes where he names Sugar as the key and the scene cuts to Sugar singing "Hallelujah!" Last Edited By: fat little fingers 11/19/08 3:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
scepticA		#3051	[-]
Posts: 1429 (11/19/08 3:51 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: For the average viewer, Corinne's UTR1-INV run should be less of a problem than Vee or Danni's low visibility over longer stretches of the game (especially postmerge). Vee and Danni were also frequent TC attenders pre-merge, unlike Corinne ep.1-6. Yes, it's quite reasonable to argue that Corinne's ep4-5 edit means death. Just don't bet on it so strongly that you close you mind to other possibilities in her edit. Edgic is not "average viewer" stuff. Based on the above, the way Corrine will win is if edgic works like it did in Guatemala, with the addition of breaking the INV rule - in other words, Corrine wins if edgic doesn't work. Gotcha. The possibilities you are mentioning are "what if's" for scenarios of redemption that would make her edit the most bipolar in survivor history. Anything is possible, I guess.
guatemala fanfic	Crystal Close Call - OTT	#3052	[-]
Posts: 3941 (11/19/08 4:05 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Crystal Cox INV (0%), UTR (16.7%), CP (0%), MOR (38.9%), OTT (44.4%) I'll start with the most clear-cut one first (working on the other two after this): The only time in the episode we saw Crystal was at Tribal Council, where she confronted Randy pretty openly. A few times during the episode, she got negative SPV, mostly from Randy, who called her things like "Sasquatch" and "T-Rex." What was really important to me was that Crystal had no confessionals at all, so we didn't get any personal insight from her or anything to balance out the scene at Tribal Council. We heard confessionals from Randy about hating Crystal, but we didn't get her side of the story at all, and she was made out to be the one who looked bad: she was simplified as OTTN. Here's a transcript of what went down between Crystal and Randy: Crystal: Well, since we're putting stuff on the table. Why do you have issues with me? Randy: Why? Crystal: Why do you have issues with Crystal? Yes, I would like to know. If I have a problem with anybody, it's clear; it's not any gray area. This is where Crystal stands. Crystal: Wait, I let you finish. Let me finish. Randy: I never even started. How can you let me finish? Crystal: You opened up your mouth. Let me finish. Now, what is it that I did to Randy for Randy to be bashing Crystal so much at Kota camp? Randy: Okay, you want a list? Crystal: What'd I do to Randy?! Really? Randy: Alright, the first nine days of this game, you made Fang a living hell. You and your boy G.C. You guys were running ... Hey, I let you talk. You gonna let me talk or what? Crystal: Speak on. Randy: Alright. You and your posse ran the tribe like it was a gang. When you guys had power, you guys were arrogant; you were hard to get along with. You guys were causing the division in our tribe and were the reason that we lost all those times. Crystal: Alright, okay. Randy: You want more? Crystal: If you feel like you have to say some more, we ain't got nothin' but time. 1) OTT means a character that is being characterized or simplified. In story terms, they are the villains and heroes, the ones we love to love or hate. A consistently OTT character is presented as a distraction to the other players. I definitely believe that she was very characterized, due to the lack of insight, and it also seems like she could be an OTT distraction for Ken if you look at her edit. 2) OTT players are generally always edited in a Positive or Negative light. This definitely applies due to the negative SPV she got, and the way she confronted Randy. Yes, the comments came from a negative character but they were shown to be justified. 4) Usually lacking in strategy, or strategy not expressed with much internal conflict - but they can have lots and lots of conflict with other people; no remorse if N and no "evil" strategizing if P - only focusing on loyalty or saving one's own skin Crystal didn't really show any strategy other than saying "We home, this is the realness right here" about Ken, Matty, and Susie, which I suppose was to show that they were an alliance. But aside from this, there was nothing from her and her outburst at Tribal Council had no explanation behind it. As a way to justify why I went with OTT, let me just quote the criteria for MOR: MOR - Middle of the road 1) MOR means something between UTR, CP, and OTT. They say and do enough to avoid UTR, but they're not emphasized caricatures or developed personalities. This is a holding episode for characters who could be CP, but the story didn't particularly involve them, or for normally UTR characters who couldn't escape inclusion in the story. As such, winners are often portrayed as MOR at some point in the story. However, a consistently MOR edit is not a good thing because these characters are more just kind of there. 2) Someone who gets an odd positive and negative mix, but not in an Over the Top manner. 3) If the player did something that you feel makes them better that UTR, but not enough to qualify for CP, then you rate MOR. 4) MOR can be used to describe characters who were mostly UTR with a fair amount of CP. I could see the first one in that Crystal was a bit of a mix between UTR and OTT, but the rest of it doesn't really apply because she WAS an emphasized caricature at Tribal Council. Number 2 definitely doesn't work because there was no mixture of positive and negative. Number 3 & 4 don't work bc even though the Tribal Council made her better than UTR, there was absolutely no insight or anything, so it wouldn't be a mix of UTR and CP. So OTT for Crystal.
guatemala fanfic		#3053	[-]
Posts: 3942 (11/19/08 4:07 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yikes, I just saw your post, flf, and it looks like we totally disagreed on Crystal!
9RedWing19		#3054	[-]
Posts: 2298 (11/19/08 4:11 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ncassaro wrote: I also have to add that with a season like Guatemala, there was a theme all season that nobody could touch Queen Steph. She was riding high all season long. Riding high all season long??? The tribes that Steph was on lost 7 out of the first 8 challenges, which to many people would hardly be riding high. As for nobody touching her, well, we have examples to the contrary such as Jamie targeting her in Ep 1, Lydia targeting her in the coconut-chop RC, Gary and the "get her autograph after the show" line.
fat little fingers		#3055	[-]
Posts: 5738 (11/19/08 4:11 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm sorry, gff. I've put you in a spot this week. I didn't get a chance to rewatch the ep until last night and didn't feel qualified to make the close calls. Don't worry. This will just confirm that I'm not the last word in what call is "right". Your decisions are always well thought out and explained.
fat little fingers		#3056	[-]
Posts: 5739 (11/19/08 4:17 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	gff: Reading your Crystal OTT explanation, I did the right thing in leaving the Close Calls to you. Normally I rewatch at least two times and take notes. This week, one quick watch and no notes. Your OTT explanation is great. I think you're right.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#3057	[-]
Posts: 1408 (11/19/08 4:23 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	gf, The TC was a reported event - it does not make Crystal an emphasized caricature. Besides, whether she had a confessional or not, both she and Susie were very much a part of the "happy family" scene pre-merge. Yes, Kenny was the emphasis of that scene, but if people are going to continue to bash Crystal with the old Fang tribal edit, surely that scene serves as a counter and not just for Kenny. I also disagree that Randy was shown to be "right" in his comments. What were we shown in the edit? GC was shown refusing to lead at all, not running the tribe "like a gang", and at that point, Crystal was underemphasized. Besides, that's ancient history in terms of where the story is now. In any case, Crystal doesn't argue at TC as she has in the past - in contrast to her other outbursts, this one is quite tame, and the edit does give us justification as we see Randy making fun of her out of context on numerous occasions this episode. (My opinion, but Randy's list is rather lame if "running the tribe like a gang" is the best he can come up with. But I can't say with certainty whether that's the editors' intent or not because it is just a reported scene.) Truthfully, I see Crystal as MOR this episode, a foil used to build up Randy's edit as a disagreeable, obnoxious personality where the TC scene was much more about him than her. ETA - Here's yet another gratuitous OTT being put on Crystal when the editors have gone out of their way this season to round her edit out. I think people are confusing what they term OTT moments with an OTT characterization. Crystal's confrontational nature is certainly part of her edit, but in many cases, it has been merely reported rather than specifically toned. In most episodes where she has had outbursts at TC, we've at least been shown her point of view. This episode, it was enough that we saw Randy's continued putdowns to justify her confrontation. I still think she loses out to Ken because I think she's stood out too much, but otherwise she's not in bad Edgic shape at all. Compare her edit to Corinne and how the negativity you feel is derived - there's a major difference. Crystal's worst scenes are reported events (that could well show up at the final TC) - Corinne's are confessionals of nastiness. Corinne is OTT overall, Crystal is MOR/CP, leaning toward the former. Last Edited By: TheLurkerSpeaks 11/19/08 4:36 PM. Edited 1 times.
fat little fingers		#3058	[-]
Posts: 5740 (11/19/08 4:23 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	P.S: gff: Warrior and Phoenix have pointed out that the Close Calls still need to be decided on Bob and Corinne. (The 52% rule.)
guatemala fanfic		#3059	[-]
Posts: 3943 (11/19/08 4:31 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	gff: Warrior and Phoenix have pointed out that the Close Calls still need to be decided on Bob and Corinne. (The 52% rule.) Yes, I know - I'm working on those ones right now - I'm just doing them one at a time.
colleenlover		#3060	[-]
Posts: 8790 (11/19/08 4:56 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	rock on, flf! I love when you get your post up with screen caps. And perfect analysis -we're on the same page -although I might give Matty more weight than you. The winner is in the Sugar/Kenny/Matty trio. Kenny looks great, although a bit obvious with the boat scene -but hell, Earl had his mountain, Ara his fire, Rich his million dollar check, Parvati her... er, pee water? I still think something has to be made with a Sugar/Kenny showdown -not necessarily one voting the other out, but end game tension. You know, just looking at your vid caps, this is just one fantastic season.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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