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Will |
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The fact that Omg is responding to things that I said to DR only confirms they are the same person.
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Whos DR? Are you refering to me?
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Will |
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Yes.
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Well I'm not, I think my posting style is a little too sloppy. I agree with OMG, but I'm not him.
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Will |
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You're not DR?
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JonathanPDisciple |
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Looks like quite a debate
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Screerider |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh wrote:I'm certain the game rules make no such claim, only indicating the requirement for becoming "the winner", not for being "the best". I never said "the best can't lose", since "the best" is subjective to our individual analysis. The colsest we can get to an objective analysis is who won, and the other players rankings. I don't get it, where the hell am I wrong? You say "winner = best", which also means "best = not a loser". So you are saying the best can't lose. Why? Because if they did, you'd then turn around and say that whoever beat them and won was "the best". Your use of a tautology makes your argument uninteresting. |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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I meant to say I'm not omg. I'm sure you wanted OMG to respond to that, in which case it would be confirmed that I'm him(I'm not. I sent him a
PM and he never responded btw)
Screerider, it is uninteresting because it is a wholly consistent and logical premise. You're putting words in my mouth essentially because you think I agree with you and others that there is some kind of "essense" maybe that makes someone a better player. I don't think there is. OMG has provided enough rebuttals concerning the Mole, so I'll just focus on other shows. On Survivor or BB or other vote off shows, those who would normally be considered the "best player" attained that through a combination of their own skill as well as luck. If they make it to the final 2(or 3,or whatever) and are superior to their oppenent(s), then yes, they are the best player. However, if they slip up, or are victims of bad luck,they are subsequently ejected and are no longer "the best player". |
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ThurgreedMarshall |
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Let me get this straight. Mark was not a good player because he didn't figure out who the Mole was quick enough? People are saying he was successful
because he worked on word games at home and did well on games designed for him? Mark was too lucky because he survived ties?
You're not the best player if you figured out who the Mole is on the first day. If you can't beat everyone on the quizzes or secure an exemption so you don't have to, you. deserve. to. lose. Mark, Paul and Nicole each played brilliant games, all in different ways (Nicole, by getting in people's heads and Paul by reading Craig and distracting people). But Mark played the best game. His test taking skills were fantastic. His game playing skills, whether physical or mental, were just as good. He used a coalition in the absolute best way (aside from Jim and Steve in Season 1) that one can. And what difference does it make how many times he tied with other players? He finished the quiz faster, so he was better than they were that day. If you don't know who the Mole is (and it seems clear that only Paul knew for most of the show), then you're not a better player if you get 8 questions right on a quiz. You don't know who it is any more than Mark, if he got 3 questions right. That's how the questions are designed. The fact is, until you are absolutely certain (or until there are very few players remaining), the best strategy for quizzes is to answer the questions with more than one possibility, covering as many people as possible. At some point you need to refine this strategy, but if it gets you through, it gets you through. I also don't get this, "Mark did well on games designed for him" theory. He earned each of those exemptions using a combination of his brains and athletic ability. I thought he was a fantastic player, with the sharpest mind for Mole games. I don't understand what all the complaining is about. So, if Mark didn't "deserve" to win, who is exactly does? Someone like Paul who can read people really well and sniffs the Mole out on day one? Perhaps. But if he truly deserved to win, shouldn't he have beaten everyone on every quiz? Wouldn't he have had an advantage because he could steer people away from Craig and would answer the quizzes perfectly every week? Is it Nicole, because she made so many players think she was the Mole and figured out that it was Craig before Mark? Perhaps. Wouldn't she have an advantage because almost everyone else would be answering quiz questions with her in mind? Surely, once it was down to the final two, the better player wins based on how well and how quickly they answer the quiz questions. The whole argument is pointless, really. Everyone looks at the game differently. If you think a certain set of skills is more impressive, then you will think that anyone who wins who has not used that specific skill set sucks. I thought Mark was very impressive. One quick word on ties. Just because Jon or Anderson or Ahmad has announced that there was a tie, does not mean that those were the only times players tied. They announce it because, in the producer's opinion, it adds to that show's execution or adds to the players' and viewers' shock during the finale. In season 2 there were many ties that were not announced and I'm sure there were many this past season that weren't announced. As for the actual Mole, judging Craig based on how impressed you were with him as a Mole is very strange. He should be judged on how difficult it was for the players on the show to determine if he was the Mole. Each and every one of you has admitted that only one player really sniffed him out. Everyone else was wrong for almost the entire show. Even though the nature of the show is to make people question themselves about every little thing anyone does, I would say that he did a pretty good job of sabotaging while keeping people off his trail. The thing that makes this show so great is that no matter how big your personality, no matter how popular you are with other players or the fans, whether you win or lose is based entirely on your own performance. You have no one to blame if you lost, but yourself. This is why these types of threads are so puzzling. If you're a player and you beat someone in week six because they missed a question they should have gotten or you tied with them, but they were slower, you didn't get lucky. You were better. You may not have been the best that week, but you were good enough to stay to put some more clues together and try again. The only time luck comes into play is when the game randomly selects someone to have the chance to win an exemption. But that's what makes the game fun! Hell, when Paul earned his exemption during the pigs fly game, it was lucky that he was in a position to have the exemption pig in his hand. (And he couldn't have been so sure he knew it was Craig at that point because he was very excited to not have to face execution.) But even considering random exemptions, if you end up on top, you have the right to call yourself the best. TM |
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Screerider |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh wrote: That's what I said you'd say. :)
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Screerider |
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omgwtfbbq wrote:No... just the LUCKIEST. Furthermore, Poker isn't a great analogy because even if you play a perfect game, it's still possible to get screwed by luck of the draw. In The Mole, the only way you can go home is if you score the lowest on the quiz with the slowest time. Mark never did that, so he never went home. It's not a hard concept to understand. Ah... so now you're just saying, well, Mark was never the WORST in a series of subsets. Yay for NOT THE WORST. I'd say having another Player misclick was very lucky for Mark. |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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I've said it several times before, if you have a problem with the results, tell me a better way the results should be determined. The winner IS the best
due to the circumstance, but you disagree with the methodology. Thats fine, tell the producers how to make the results more accurate, but you you can't
deny that the winner was the best player. Luck or not, skill or not, the winner was the best player according to the rules.
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Screerider |
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No, the "winner" is the "winner" according to the rules. That's all.
Why do you have to have a "best"? A game of flipping a coin could determine a winner. Were they automatically "the best"? |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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YES!!
Listen, if the "best player" was totally subjective, then THERE WOULD BE NO POINT IN PLAYING AT ALL. I'm not saying the best player can be objectivly measured before the show starts. Whatever reality game you're talking about, the winner and thus "best player" is determined by the game itself. How CAN a loser be better then the winner. I'll repeat it for the last time, you have a problem with the rules? Perfectly valid. You are saying that the winner in a legitimate game is NOT the best player?? I'm perplexed. Like Thurgreed Marshall said, it just doesn't make sense for the winner NOT to be the best player. What a ridiculous argument we're having. |
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Screerider |
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The "best" coin-toss-results-getter. Uh huh.
I see you simply have an irrational need to assign "best" to some player, rather than just take the an actual rule-given term like "winner". OCD? "There must be a 'best'. There must be a 'best'. Apricots. There must be a 'best'." |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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You're putting words in my mouth. You are also saying that the "best" can't be determined until a time when we have "sufficiant"
data, a time which may never come if you are the bearer of that date. The coin toss winner was the best by virtue that they won. It's total luck,requiring
no skill, but they were the "best" of that round. If that person and their opponent flipped 1,000 times, and the original winner won 300 out of
1,000,he wouldn't be the winner of "best of 1,000". Best means "most deserving". How can a loser of a game possibly be more deserving
then the winner?
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Screerider |
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"Best" doesn't mean "most deserving".
Again, look at poker. Some players obviously have a better strategy, as they consistent make it deep in tournaments. Other players obviously do not, as they consistantly don't. Yet, the latter can win over the former. That does not mean they have a better strategy. They got lucky. They "won". In games like these, there is no "best", in my opinion. There are "better" strategies, and "worse" strategies. Allow me to quote myself: I just don't see Mark having to rely on getting by on several close calls all that repeatably successful. Sure he took notes, but had a terrible nose for the Mole. A Player who doesn't take notes, but has a nose for the Mole, will likely last longer on a consistent basis.Consistently getting deeper in the game, to me, means you have a "better" strategy. Doing it once and then crashing and burning every other time, would indicate a "worse" strategy, and really just speaks to getting lucky that one time.
Last Edited By: Screerider
08/18/08 12:03 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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The formers "stratagy" and playing the odds is irrelevent, since they had a bad hand or something. Anyway, I can see the hostitlity you have with the
word "best"(and I'll be equally hostile when you say we have sufficient data and call someone best, because your view is no more accurate then
mine), so I'll use the term "deserving". Tell me, why is Nicole more deserving then Mark?
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Screerider |
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I'll not debate "deserving". I could care less who's got more mouths to feed.
How about you have a guy who wins his games 9 times out of 10. Another guy who averages 1 win out of every 10 games. Who's the "better" player? |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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In best out of ten,the former player. In that individual game, the latter player. However, i doubt someone will ever play 10 games of the Mole, Survivor,etc,
so it's a moot point. And I don't mean deserving by who needs the money, "deserving" and "best" are syonomous with me.
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