S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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astroline		#4041	[-]
Posts: 645 (12/30/07 10:23 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Just a suggestion, for the final ratings, for Chicken & Peih Gee, can we please leave out the "M" in their column? It looks so odd. I don't remember any characters named "Sylvia = M" and "Anthony = M" from Fiji, but they're on the chart. If anything, we could throw an asterisk after their name, and leave a note at the bottom (like what was used for when a player was sent to Exile Island in S12, S13, S14), such as "* Player received mixed tone for the season" or some shit like that. But please, no M's next to the person's name, Warrior! :) And as far as close calls go (thanks again Blake for tallying all that), Jaime should be neutral and Courtney should be OTT, regardless of tone.
Kitty Pryde1		#4042	[-]
Posts: 1726 (12/30/07 10:58 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I remember the Sylvia = M and Anthony = M
Wc3Fanatic		#4043	[-]
Posts: 1834 (12/30/07 11:27 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The bottom line was that Courtney's pre-merge edit was the OTT distraction. Early game it was her feud with JR... over... and over... again. She had NOTHING strategically whatsoever, other than Todd's goat. People TRIED to make Courtney fit, and they tried to make Todd NOT fit.
colleenlover		#4044	[-]
Posts: 7527 (12/30/07 12:05 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	she had nothing strategic because she wasn't giving strategic confessionals. My Devil's Advocate logic was sound. And she couldn't be a simple OTTN distraction because she was in the final two/three -you have to give your finalists weight to keep the mystery alive. OTTN and OTTP don't make the final jury questioning because we know they will win or lose. There has to be doubt. Again, the only tell-tale sign was the episode three "taking out the trash" confessional by Todd and not Courtney. That is it. The temple scene is the same as Rich sitting in a tree in his first episode and not fitting in with the group. It easily could have evolved later on -we just didn't know. (in this case, it did not, but would be impossible to know -but the POSSIBILITY was there). I've stated that Courtney's chances nose-dived by the last few episodes when she never had confessionals, but by then I already concluded that I was out. This was an excellently crafted season where the doubt was exceptional, and the way I think it should always be done. For people solely picking Todd, kudos, but I never saw concrete logic that kept him and eliminated the others. Unlike we were able to pin-point with Earl, Tom and Aras.
unduli clone		#4045	[-]
Posts: 2389 (12/30/07 1:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	astroline wrote: Just a suggestion, for the final ratings, for Chicken & Peih Gee, can we please leave out the "M" in their column? It looks so odd. I don't remember any characters named "Sylvia = M" and "Anthony = M" from Fiji, but they're on the chart. If anything, we could throw an asterisk after their name, and leave a note at the bottom (like what was used for when a player was sent to Exile Island in S12, S13, S14), such as "* Player received mixed tone for the season" or some shit like that. But please, no M's next to the person's name, Warrior! :) Yes, I'd love for there to be an asterisk instead of the "=M". I'd love for it to be changed for Fiji as well... :)
guatemala fanfic		#4046	[-]
Posts: 2728 (12/30/07 2:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	For those with mixed, might I suggest that their names be italicized? I think it's noticeable enough that you can tell. That's what I did I my chart with everybody's names in their overall rating color. (I'll post an updated one in the next day or two)
Riliss		#4047	[-]
Posts: 2634 (12/30/07 2:18 PM) Ugly on the inside Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Isn't the correct term mulatto?
Survivor2345andbeyond		#4048	[-]
Posts: 3257 (12/30/07 2:24 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	we are aware we don't have ratings for episode 15 of ASS?
BlakeB717		#4049	[-]
Posts: 690 (12/30/07 4:47 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	For the close call, I give Jaime Neutral because she was relatively positive and fluffly early on, and ended off negative. I give Courtney MOR because she was a mix of OTT and UTR thoughout the season, and in the guidlines that exact mix is MOR.
cantthinkofaname		#4050	[-]
Posts: 1031 (12/30/07 6:04 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I give Courtney MOR because she was a mix of OTT and UTR thoughout the season, and in the guidlines that exact mix is MOR So should we change Bruce and Amy to MORP?
BlakeB717		#4051	[-]
Posts: 691 (12/30/07 6:15 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I always felt that Bruce was absolutely a MORP overall character, similar to Denise. Amy was only UTR for the first 2 episodes, the rest she was very significant and I believe her OTTP works. Why are you asking me that lol?
cantthinkofaname		#4052	[-]
Posts: 1032 (12/30/07 6:18 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Even though she only got 1 OTT rating for the season.
BlakeB717		#4053	[-]
Posts: 692 (12/30/07 7:19 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yep but she had lots of CPPs but when you look at her as a whole she was someone you wanted to root for and most of her complexities was about her injuries so I felt like she was more of just a hero rather than an insightful character. I'd have to rewatch to really be 100% certain. With Courtney she was just.. villain then.. nothing.. just overall a comical character that had low visibility. Bleh. MORN. Don't be mean It's just my opinion.
getting real		#4054	[-]
Posts: 988 (12/30/07 8:48 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	After Chris and Danni, the complex tribe theory doesn't really hold water. It is much more useful in identifying the bulk of endgame players than in identifying the winner. Peih Gee was a legitimate choice, but Todd was better. I have to agree with Chap on this one, regarding complex tribe theory. It doesn't happen so obviously in every series but when editors treat one tribe as dismissively as they treated ZH and La Mina, they are telling us that they don't care about any of its members as winners. Certain individual edits within those ignored tribes may stand out relative to the others (PG, Terry) but all that means is that they outlast the others. They do not win. PG wasn't ever going to win. As OO says, Todd was the only possible Edgic winner. Sorry, CL, I acknowledge that, to all intents and sub-conscious purposes you went for Todd, but Courtney was never a possibility once the the temple scene disrespect was reinforced on several occasions. Instead, she was ignored in almost all the key moments where a winner would not have been. And the 'luckiest player' quote could never come to fruition due to logic dictating that hell would freeze over before JR voted for her. However, as you've said on many occasions, you're great at picking the end-game players and Courtney was quite a coup. Well done. PS. I'm obviously not saying these things with the benefit of hindsight. I've been consistent in insisting that Todd's was the only edit capable of winning. Amanda's edit was certainly manipulated but woefully undeveloped. I agree with Wallduck. Sometimes things really are just what they appear.
colleenlover		#4055	[-]
Posts: 7531 (12/30/07 9:51 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	sorry, but that's bullshit to a degree. Courtney's disrespect happened in the temple, a crucial scene, it wasn't manipulated lounging around camp. It was locked into the theme of the show. She did such a thing. We had no evidence that she couldn't have a change later on that Burnett wouldn't exploit. The second episode she was the sole one to comment on the twist of the Jamie kidnapping, and the importance not to give info to the enemy. In the third episode, she was involved in the taking out the trash, and then received a TC segment, and the precouncil of voting out of Lesley, and then when Lesley left the contemplative shot, not to mention Todd and Amanda's SHOWN conversation of keeping Courtney because she won't win anything. In terms of storytelling, the possibility was there -and could easily happen in a future season. As a detective you have to explore all the avenues -even with someone like Erik. In terms of logic counting her out, that's hindsight -if we observed the body language, people were always laughing along with her etc. No one will be able to present a sound case to me on this issue -I stand firm -except my own case of Todd getting the confessional in episode three about the "trash" instead of Courtney. I do this just to help Edgic.
colleenlover		#4056	[-]
Posts: 7532 (12/30/07 9:56 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And the 'luckiest player' quote could never come to fruition due to logic dictating that hell would freeze over before JR voted for her. But how the hell would you know that? There's over seventy hours of additional footage for each one hour episode. People say everything. We could have found out after the game that Jean Robert had many great moments with Courtney and they only showed the bad parts, or was so angry at Todd and Amanda that he voted out of spite. Why put in something like luckiest player if there's not the possiblity of it being ironic? Would Fairplay ever vote for Sandra -"I can promise you she's not gonna to be in the final four, or winning this game." You usually put the opposite in so it is a surprise.
colleenlover		#4057	[-]
Posts: 7533 (12/30/07 10:00 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I say all this not as X (in this case Courtney) in definitely the winner, but in the case of a solving a mystery and which suspects should be kept alive. At the merge, I could confidently say Jamie is not the winner because A, B, and C and so forth. Same for Denise. For Courtney, I could say well she is this -but X could happen to justify the earlier stuff. Denise couldn't win because even though she had the story -it was put on hold and so forth.
beatles20147		#4058	[-]
Posts: 11259 (12/30/07 10:24 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And the 'luckiest player' quote could never come to fruition due to logic dictating that hell would freeze over before JR voted for her. Since when does logic come into play with predicting jury votes? It's easy to say that in hindsight there was no possibility of JR ever voting for Courtney, but didn't he preface his question to the F3 by telling them his vote was live and up for grabs; that he didn't want to vote for Courtney but Amanda and Todd had betrayed him and he swore that doing that would lose their chances of getting his vote in the end? Everybody knew that he wasn't rooting for Courtney by any means, but it was pretty clear that his threat to Todd in the merge episode was going to be one of two things: A) Irony, because he would cast the winning vote for Todd or B) Explanation for why Todd lost the game It ended up being A, but you never knew until the end. The JR/Courtney feud was reinforced a lot with no real ending--what better way to close the book on it then for one of them to vote for the other to win the game? As I said before, JR's vote was determined by the final TC, so if Todd hadn't stroked his ego, Courtney might have won the whole shebang (and I would've been freakin' delighted I might add). It's not like they could edit the JR/Courtney feud any differently, and even if they could, it'd be too priceless not to show it exactly as they did. Courtney made sense as a winner candidate--maybe not as the #1 pick, but she was always in contention from my point of view--at least until it was proven that an appreciation of the culture to make up for the eye rolls via some reward wasn't in the cards.
getting real		#4059	[-]
Posts: 989 (12/30/07 10:30 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	And the 'luckiest player' quote could never come to fruition due to logic dictating that hell would freeze over before JR voted for her. But how the hell would you know that? It's the logic of real life experience, as I noted several times when the issue of JR voting for her came up. As a professional poker player (and one immersed in his own ego and an exaggerated belief in his own abilities), JR would never countenance the possibility of rewarding luck over skill. This is not hindsight, it's using outside knowledge as a background to analyse the editing, a bit like OTH using his own experiences to contruct a less negative model of Todd than others were seeing. As far as Courtney's temple disrespect is concerned, there were ample subsequent opportunities to attempt at least a partial redemption. If Courtney was the winner, I would have expected the editors to edit in something, anything (an approving or grateful smile, perhaps?) during the Chinese family's visit. Even if there was nothing forthcoming, if Courtney was the winner, they would have manipulated something to counter the damage of the original scene. By the time she went to the Great Wall and, as you noted at the time, again missed her chance at redemption, her winner's chances had already been dead in the water for a very long time. However, I appreciate that you had the insight to find the threads which tied her to the end game.
cantthinkofaname		#4060	[-]
Posts: 1033 (12/30/07 10:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Blake, you're letting visibility affect rating. Good point about Amy btw. ETA: sorry if I seemed mean.

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S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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