Yeah. Todd was WAY too much like Brian C. or Rob. It's understandable to have written him off.
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S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)
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 Kitty Pryde1 |
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Posts: 1581 (12/27/07 6:43 PM) |
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Kitty Pryde1 |
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Posts: 1582 (12/27/07 6:44 PM) |
4000 posts of China Edgic!
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wallduck |
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Posts: 420 (12/27/07 6:50 PM) Registered User |
I remember KQ saying that the "complex tribe theory" is the best tool that Edgic has.
It may be that it's a good theory, but one that doesn't hold up under unusual circumstances. It was designed for two
"traditional" tribes. But when they mess with the tribes, as in the following situations, it should be discounted.
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Warrior |
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Posts: 2409 (12/27/07 6:55 PM) Registered User |
One tribe is made of all-stars. Good points wallduck, but we don't know about this one yet. |
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 7512 (12/27/07 7:12 PM) Registered User |
Warrior wrote: well, ask yourself what is a complex tribe, or a complex edited character. Is it Person A: "If I can get Sammy to go with me and then take Joey to believe I'm with him and think we're dumping Sammy, then I can win." Or Is it Person B: "It's thirty more days to the end, and I don't know if I can find the strength to make it, but I'm going to start thinking, and trying to figure this thing out." It's Person B -even though it has nothing to do with strategy, but instead threads to the end. Complex tribe having the winner, is because it usually does -but really it's a tool to find out who's in the endgame and what themes will return and reach their climax. If Colleen had won Borneo, Tagi would still have been the complex tribe because it was all wrapped up in Sue and Rich burning the other, or the use of Rudy as a pawn for the endgame. Colleen would still have some complex confessionals (talking about being at risk and coming to a new land), but the complex tribe is how Rich and Sue combat one another in the endgame, even if Colleen sneaks through and wins -her winning has nothing to do with the politics in Pagong. Do you see? |
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chaperone |
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Posts: 2269 (12/27/07 7:31 PM) Registered User |
In the first episode of Vanuatu, we saw a complex male tribe, the boot was a surprise and instead of focusing at all on Brook, they focused on tribal
dynamics, they were key, because Chris was turning the tide from being the dummy who couldn't balance to being the mastermind. I want to re-watch episoode
1...but that's from memory. Episode 1 of the Yasur tribe boot was 4 and 4, no complexity the young girls versus the old girls...and Dolly was in the
middle, so they voted Dolly out. Nothing complex there. The second female boot? Who was more annoying, Twila or Mia? Mia. (Do early fights almost always
involve one end-gamer and one early boot...no?)
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Francois40 |
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Posts: 1719 (12/27/07 7:40 PM) Registered user |
The idea of "complex tribe" is fascinating and cool (etc), but in the end, it is subjective. Those who wish
to call Tribe A "the complex one" can find evidence to do so. Those who want to say that, no, Tribe B is the complex one, will have plenty of footage
to prove their point. This is what bothers me about "complex tribe"--you can argue it for either (any) one.
Zhan Hu had all the fighting with Dave, and OTT characters like Chicken, Ashley (who turned out not to be so OTT but she certainly seemed that way at first). There was the alluded "friction" between Dave and PG as "dualing leaders". Someone could have called them the complex tribe, while FL had mostly Courtney and Jean-Robert's bickering and Todd throwing million-dollar quotes around. Yes, we saw more strategy with them, but a lot of that was because they got the first Idol clues as well as eventually finding the Idols. All of that had to be shown. If "complex tribe" is going to be an "engraved in stone" guideline, then we should come up with more objective and quantifiable signs of the complex tribe. |
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chaperone |
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Posts: 2270 (12/27/07 7:42 PM) Registered User |
Please get your votes in for the finale by noon tomorrow. I'll be doing the tally sometime in the afternoon tomorrow unless otherwise
directed by FLF.
Thanks, Chap |
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chaperone |
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Posts: 2271 (12/27/07 7:53 PM) Registered User |
Francois40 wrote: This is key...good point, Francois. I'm going to have little to offer in the way of objectivity. What I'm talking about in complexity is the
structure of alliance forming relationships. Off the bat in Fei Long we had dangling questions of who was playing whom, whether Todd or Jean-Robert was going
to be the alpha-mastermind, where do Courtney and silent Denise fit into this structure? Even James-Leslie's relationship is intriguing to the viewer, not
really sure if that's a voting block, a developing relationship, etc. But wait, next episode Leslie talks about how she's close with Todd? Hmmm...who
else is close with Todd? Aaron thinks he is but we've seen how Todd is using him as a puppet master.
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 7513 (12/27/07 8:11 PM) Registered User |
In the first episode of Vanuatu, we saw a complex male tribe, the boot was a surprise and instead of focusing at all on Brook, they focused on tribal
dynamics, they were key, because Chris was turning the tide from being the dummy who couldn't balance to being the mastermind. I want to re-watch episoode
1...but that's from memory. Episode 1 of the Yasur tribe boot was 4 and 4, no complexity the young girls versus the old girls...and Dolly was in the
middle, so they voted Dolly out. Nothing complex there. The second female boot? Who was more annoying, Twila or Mia? Mia. (Do early fights almost always
involve one end-gamer and one early boot...no?)
Ah, wait -the male tribe was not complex -Rory was given the complex story. Chris fell off the beam, etc. No, no, no -remember the females walk to camp being shown to us? Lots of Scout and Eliza. The men were straight forward. Chris had foreshadowing but not connected to anything -Chad's leg perhaps. |
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chaperone |
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Posts: 2272 (12/27/07 8:16 PM) Registered User |
colleenlover wrote: I should probably watch it again before commenting on something that was so many years ago...don't they say history is written by the victors? (not
me...but by my hindsight edgic mind).
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MasterDarkNinja |
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Posts: 2653 (12/27/07 8:38 PM) Registered User |
About the complex tribe theory, I think there's something to saying that the winner's tribe gets edited differently then a loser's tribe, but
it's not what the guideline says. If we have a situation like Palau, where one tribe of 8 people wins all the immunity challenges and is 8 of the F9 then
of course they're going to be the more complex tribe with all of the future dynamics, there's no way to place the one other person in with them until
they merge or swap.
There are however key differences to how each tribe gets edited if they win or not. Lets compare some tribes that were in similar situations but differ in if they had the winner or not. In Fiji the original Moto tribe dominated until the swap, they won every single challenge, and only ever went to TC by choice to avoid losing their camp of luxury (and I don't recall them getting beat up over that decision by Jeff or anyone either in the editing). The original Moto tribe was 5 out of 7 of the F7, yet for the first few episodes they were surprisingly ignored a lot, other then Dre, and they also were frequently shown as ungrateful and lazy, with Dre talking about how they don't know how it's like to struggle. In recaps Jeff frequently talked about how Ravu 'let victory slip out of their hands' from various things (Yau-man's forgetfulness, Erika's panicking), and painted them as underdogs. Compare them to swap Moto, who only lost one reward challenge, once the swap happened all the talk about Ravu being the underdogs from having nothing was gone, Moto was no longer shown as ungrateful (even the people from the original moto tribe), and Jeff started to call Moto the underdog tribe. New Moto did end up dominating in the merge, (5 out of 6 of the F6) just like old moto (5 out of 7 of the F7), yet the treatment given to both tribes in the editing was strikingly different. Lately the P tribe tends to be the one that succeeds and holds the winner, but not always. La Mina wasn't anywhere near as complex as Casaya (reasonable considering how Casaya dominated the end game), but it was certainly far more P then the villainous crazy Casaya tribe. But look at the difference between the La Mina underdogs, and the NuYaxha underdogs. Yes both were P tribes against a tribe with a lot of unlikeable characters and few P people, but NuYaxha was never shown as stupid/pathetic and a bunch of pawn followers. La Mina on the other hand was all about Super Terry who could do anything on his own, but had a bunch of worthless tribemates who couldn't even clean up camp without him around (or whatever it was they wanted to do that episode without Terry, I forget what it was by now). A tribe of pagonged underdogs that succeeds at turning the tables and producing a win in the end in front of a jury does not get shown as a bunch of a hopeless morons incapable of doing anything without their great leader. I'm not really sure how to put all that into a better complex tribe guideline... maybe something like "The lazier tribe, shown as more worthless then the others, and often not very smart at the same time, does not hold the winner", but that doesn't sound very good to me.
Last Edited By: MasterDarkNinja
12/28/07 2:34 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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guatemala fanfic |
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Posts: 2722 (12/27/07 8:52 PM) |
I'm not really sure how to put all that into a better complex tribe guideline... maybe something like "The lazier tribe, shown as more worthless then the others, and often not very smart at the same time, does not hold the winner", but that doesn't sound very good to me.The only thing with that is this is how Maraamu was edited at the beginning of Marquesas and Vecepia came from that tribe. I don't think you saw Marquesas though, but other than that, I would say it's a good general guideline to keep in mind. |
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chaperone |
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Posts: 2273 (12/27/07 8:57 PM) Registered User |
I'm downloading episodes 1 and 2 of Vanuatu from iTunes right now...and reading through the s9 edgic thread. It's funny to see Julie's name and
not in reference to being Probsty's girlfriend. haha. Did they break up yet? He doesn't talk about her anymore in his interviews.
Some quotes immediately after episode 1...which are relevant to the CT discussion: Looks like Lopevi definately has the mor interesting bunch. Interesting that both tribes have seemed to develop a young versus old split. Neither tribe should be considered the more complex tribe, as both were given relatively equal airtime, and both tribes were shown with complex dynamics developing. The men only seem more complex now because they went to TC. It was interesting that we didnt see the conversations between Lea/Chris and Rory, Travis and Chad, but that would have killed any suspense for the episode. Initial complex tribe was the men, right? We will have to see if that continues when they don't go to TC. E-1 Complex tribe - Lopevi I think the tribes were equally complex, until the guys went to tribal council. As far as complex Tribe goes, I think it's ridiculous to assess that before all tribes have been to council. Since the complex-tribe issue is something people use in their analysis a lot, I thought I'd copy/paste some discussion on this topic from another thread: I thought the Yasur tribe was definitely the complex tribe. Whether hiking to their camp, or building the shelter, it was all about how one cluster of players conflicts with the other. Set up in a way to say "More to come folks..." That's all after episode 1...I have to take off, maybe I'll do episode 2 later. The above gives a pretty inconclusive view of episode 1's complex tribal dynamics (and it should be inconclusive after one episode), and it's fair to say that some thought Yasur, some Lopevi, some Lopevi with disclaimer, and some withheld judgment until later. |
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OnlyTheHunter |
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Posts: 1286 (12/27/07 10:05 PM) Edgician |
Couple things, first unduli, ask Warrior to be sure but I think the italicized parts of the guidelines were changes that were marked to set them off as
having been changed.
No secret I've never been a big fan of complex tribe, mostly because the temptation to eliminate so many so quickly is a slippery slope. And to be fair,
it took only three episodes now to discount Erik, Denise, Frosti, James, JR, Jaime, Dave and Sherea plus the first three boots. Without thinking about complex
tribe, using INV, meaningful edit and OTT, we were down to 5 of 16 even possible left in three episodes, and perhaps less with Aaron and Courtney debatable.
And this was a tricky season. Complex tribe can help, but the other guidelines do a lot still.
Last Edited By: OnlyTheHunter
12/27/07 10:07 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Oowatanite |
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Posts: 4525 (12/27/07 10:56 PM) Registered User |
Kitty Pryde1 wrote: This statement is not even close to being correct. And GIMG, Survivor AllStars should really be redone with current Edgic, just like Australia and Pearl Islands were redone. Amber might get an INV, and her
ridiculous OTTN Edgic rating in Tom's boot episode can finally be corrected. Maybe Edgic can redo ASS after
S16 is finished in May.
Last Edited By: Oowatanite
12/27/07 11:02 PM.
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chapera rocks |
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Posts: 8149 (12/28/07 12:15 AM) Registered User |
I rewatched Tom's boot once I saw the OTTN rating, because I didn't remember any such edit. I agree that it should be changed.
Not only that, but an INV1 rating for Joel in E1 of S1 is ridiculous... the guys had 2 confessionals and the whole BB-Joel conflict was started right here. |
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SFC |
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Posts: 116 (12/28/07 12:31 AM) Registered user |
Speaking of the Edgic for All Stars, why is Rupert a MORP overall when he had 5 OTTP's and an OTTN
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OnlyTheHunter |
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Posts: 1287 (12/28/07 1:04 AM) Edgician |
Couple of comments to Warrior's post a bit ago.
Todd's visibility was not out of the range of past male winners after 12 episodes.Read the comments up to episode 6. A lot of people wrote Todd off due to their perception of his visibility. That minority group wasn't going to see him as the winner by the merge no matter what arguments were made. After episode 6 some of his support lopped off in fear of a 5 that came when the idol came into play, which proved to be fatal to picking him when it counted. And quite a few people supporting him at that time did it while including comments of concern about his V. It was an issue that really wasn't as large in examintion as it was perceived but it was clearly perceived at the time. As FLF said after episode 6, "Todd's issue isn't his CP, but his visibility. This has been Amanda's winner strength all along. She is next to Todd, but always is the quieter edit." I think a lot of people wanted to follow the quieter edit to date by episode 6. That tide wasn't turned. Not picking on FLF, by the way, that feeling was shared by many. Very many. In episode 7 Todd goes CPNegative while Peih Gee goes CP and Peih Gee goes to "Top pick"It was already too late, the merge was past. I can only paraphrase it since I can't find it, but wallduck had the great line about not giving up on your choice after the merge as the editors will tear at your soul the rest of the way, which clearly was an issue for everyone at some point. We won't rehash the past about my feeling on all those Ns, but Todd did win, so obviously he wasn't too negative after the merge regardless. Seeing Todd move into the top spot in week 11 was a continuing indicator that whatever perceived faults he had we as a whole saw him as viable wth 3 of the negatives you highlighted, and PG and Amanda had their own issues to keep it close. I was more concerned about the OTT votes, but I myself only saw it in episode 12 and went with my gut, the same way I did about two of those Ns. An OTT in the next to last episode is perfect for doubt, just rarely used. It appears negative tone was used as the best doubt they could create for Todd, really. Was he pissing too many people off was the only question on the way to his win they used. The old "in retrospect" shows it. We just struggled with it in game. I was impressed by PG's edit. I was in that bunch that never could elevate her above Todd but a lot of care was put into her edit. Good tv was part of it, part was her Final TC performance which differentiated Todd from Amanda in the end. And some was her being the last Zhan Hu. When she called Denise 4th, it seemed ordained. But it was a meaty edit, lacking the meaningfulness Todd received. I don't MB messed up, I think her made things tougher. And I enjoyed every minute of it. Michael |
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chaperone |
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Posts: 2274 (12/28/07 1:21 AM) Registered User |
I just watched ep's 1 & 2 of Vanuatu and (with the clear benefit of hindsight admittedly) can see that the tribes in the first two episodes exhibit
equal complexities. In fact, it was interesting to watch how the editors created complexity. I think Rory's editing specifically keeps the watcher on the
toes of Lopevi, but the complexities of Yasur (as far as ep 2 goes) are solely which way will Dolly go...then the great strategic move by Eliza. I can't
recally where that lands Eliza in ep 3 and beyond, but probably contribues to a complex world...
I do think ep 3 is important for CT theory, of which I'll happily be the sole voice of for devil's advocate sake (and KQ's). Perhaps the lesson learned in Vanuatu is that unless the CT is clearly demonstratable (I would argue that Fei Long was cearly the CT in China and would've argued that from ep 1 to the end), CT theory should be tertiary at best. Seriously...both tribes had 5 versus 4 (one young vs old the other old vs young). For the guys the wild card is "will they turn on Rory?", and for the girls it's "will someone switch?". Vanuatu has to be one of my least favorite seasons, form the opening ritual on. Even watching the first 2 eps I was bored again. Though the last 3-4 episodes with Chris the last man standing was truly great, and the dethroning of Queen Amy was one of my most satisfying Survivor boots ever. Sigh. |
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- Survivor Sucks
- Lions, Tigers, Survivors - Oh My!
- Survivor Spoilers
- MESS Hall Tribal Council
- MESS Hall Archive
- Survivor Speculation
- Survivor 20+
- The Amazing Race
- Big Brother
- Big Brother - PAST SEASONS
- The Apprentice
- American Idol
- American Idol PAST SEASONS
- The Mole
- Lost
- Other Shows That Suck
- Off Topic
- Clubs That Suck. No, Really.
- The Dump
- Monster Island
- Purgatory
- FAQ
- In Memory, 9/11/01
