S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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cantthinkofaname		#3901	[-]
Posts: 1021 (12/22/07 5:56 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If Todd is mixed, where are the P's to make him mixed. The only choices are N or static neutral. I only say static because not everyone agrees that Todd's N overall. yes Jenna and Brian are more N, but just barely, they both had at least 1 P episode too.
wallduck		#3902	[-]
Posts: 418 (12/22/07 6:38 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	"Typically the winner is not overly Positive or Negative, and will have both positive and negative moments highlighted throughout the season to resurface in front of the jury." Nothing untrue about that. But since we don't know in advance what will resurface, it just adds that the winner will have both positive and negative. That, I think, is covered by the meaningful edit guideline. It's very hard to imagine meaningful editing that doesn't include some P and some N. The exception would be a UTRP winner, which is why a UTRP winner has to be detected using guidelines other than the meaningful edit guideline. So it's not always focusing on the individual, but on if the other players meet the guidelines less. Yes. I was thinking about this a lot early in the season, while trying to figure out whether Amanda could be a UTRP winner. (Excuse me for being obsessed with the topic.) I decided that for a UTRP to win, there has to be no other player who fits the guidelines better. Since Todd fit the guidelines very well, there was no place for a UTRP winner: it wouldn't make sense. You need a situation where no player fits the guidelines well, as in S4, S8 and S11. However, it may be an interesting topic to discuss why only one female has won since All Stars. I don't think it has to do with edgic, but yes, it's a very interesting topic. The last 4 winners have not only been edited as CPs--they played the game as CPs play. And, as I discussed in the off-season of S14, males gravitate toward the CP game more than females do. Todd's game looked like he plannned it in advance by studying his CP-winner predecessors. It may be that the game of Survivor has actually been figured out, and the producers may have to do something about that.
colleenlover		#3903	[-]
Posts: 7501 (12/22/07 7:12 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	how do you not play a complex game? Humans by thier nature are complex. You mean, Todd plaed a game in which he wasn't making straight forward decisions? That just means it has to be documented -his edit itself could be straight forward. Fairplay played a complex out of the box game, yet his edit was OTTN. The game play for edgic is irrelevent. ANYONE can win the game, and be a terrible strategist. All that matters is how the footage is pieced together.
chaperone		#3904	[-]
Posts: 2257 (12/22/07 11:19 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I haven't caught on the thread yet...has everyone got their finale votes in? I'll do the finale tally maybe on Friday this week? Let me know if that's kosher.
MasterDarkNinja		#3905	[-]
Posts: 2647 (12/22/07 11:47 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If Todd is mixed, where are the P's to make him mixed. The only choices are N or static neutral. I only say static because not everyone agrees that Todd's N overall. yes Jenna and Brian are more N, but just barely, they both had at least 1 P episode too. Todd DID have some P's, but edgic failed to give him P ratings when he deserved it. Rewatch episode #1 and tell me that Todd wasn't set up as the eager likable big player. And rewatch episode #6, the episode that Todd dominated in so much we figured he was a distraction at the time, and tell me he wasn't a hero for saving the bigger hero James. Tell me why we were met to hope that Frosti got the HII instead of Todd or Amanda, and why Todd's plotting to save P victim James didn't make him P. Oh and then there's the fact that he was thinking of getting rid of two N characters that episode, Jean-Robert and Sherea. I also have Todd down as P in episodes #2 and the finale, and N in 3 episodes, M in 1. Todd was no big N villain, he was only mildly N whenever he got a N, and he had some P episodes to balance out those N ones.
BlakeB717		#3906	[-]
Posts: 682 (12/23/07 3:58 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	A few questions; -What are Edgies? -Is anyone posting on PT's forum yet? If so, link please! -Anymore out there want to put in their final ratings? -Is anyone interested in redoing All-Stars edgic? I'd personally love to, although I have no idea where to watch any episodes... but the 1-3 visibilites are killing me!
BlakeB717		#3907	[-]
Posts: 683 (12/23/07 5:23 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Something of interest I've noted: flf had some of the most far-off edgic ratings for Amanda (mainly in the beginning of the season). MOST notabley Episode One, when everyone was fighting over UTR1 and UTR2, but knowing our good-old flf he threw in MORP2! Here's some comparisons between his ratings and edgic's ratings (of course I threw mine in there too =P): flf never leave edgic!!! --- I've been reviewing past edgic seasons, and I'm so damn ready for S16. puts on war armor It'll be a battle!!!
colleenlover		#3908	[-]
Posts: 7504 (12/23/07 7:54 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	let's not rewrite history. I don't think Todd had any positive episodes. That's not to say he's not likeable, but that was not because of editing. I'd say he was mostly CP and certainly at times CPN.
Cassidy666		#3909	[-]
Posts: 6690 (12/23/07 8:36 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Can I also point out something else that might get missed in analyzing using edgic - side comments that imply things that have not been established by previous editing. An example of this was the episode where Amanda talked to Peih Gee before voting her out. By edgic standards, it was supposed to be a positive scene for Amanda showing why Peih Gee would vote for her. Peih Gee said that it was good that she now knew where Amanda was coming from since she had not really talked that much with her in that way before, implying that Amanda had not taken the time or effort to make a bond with her in the first place, which is a long time since they had been together since the merge. Before the bonding scene, editing had made it seem like Amanda had good relationships with everyone. This was clearly not the case as we found out later. Amanda herself even commented that the reasons why she might vote Todd out were that he was not trustworthy and he had made better bonds with everyone else. This was in the final episode itself. Last minute bonding when she clearly had to vote Peih Gee out rubbed me the wrong way for precisely that reason, which was why I did not find anything positive in what she was doing when I watched it. The hypocritical whining that episode did not help my opinion of her either. Editing made it look like she was justified in complaining about Todd and Courtney complaining, but it was sanctimonious if you looked at it objectively, especially considering Peih Gee's situation. I don't know if edgic is equpped to deal with that kind of subtleties. If more weight had been attached to Amanda's implied lack of relationship building, perhaps the editing could be seen as making her a distraction for the real winner, Todd (and even Courtney, who also beat her).
GretchenIsMyGod		#3910	[-]
Posts: 2980 (12/23/07 8:52 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think Courtney could've been eliminated by the 6th episode. Not because of the "negative" temple scene -- she's witty! Let's see her wit in action. Just because they never allowed her "outsider at Fei Long" story to come into fruition, which would've been golden for a winner. PG, though. The only thing going against her was that Todd's edit was better. And I STILL picked her! "Todd's edit is too good, it's surely a trap!!" Kind of a Yau-Man / Earl situation. Oh, on a side note, were I watching Survivor: Borneo right now, right after episode 6 I would've nailed Gretchen as the clear winner. She beats Colleen or Greg in the end, but they're all so likeable and capable and looks like anybody's game! Especially after Gretchen started to seem a little stubborn and bossy and Colleen got all those great scenes of bonding and with everyone. Last Edited By: GretchenIsMyGod 12/23/07 8:54 AM. Edited 1 times.
colleenlover		#3911	[-]
Posts: 7505 (12/23/07 8:55 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	cassidy, editing did NOT make it look like Amanda had good relationships out there, nor did it make it like she had bad relationships. It wasn't a factor at all -that is just people using logic of the game and not the edit. It wasn't part of the story or a theme. The scenes you're talking about with PG is something we've talked about for many seasons. An eleventh hour distraction to shift focus off the winner. Her scene wasn't presented as hypocritical -that's just us connecting the dots. No, it was merely used as a distraction. If she had won, then we probably would have gotten scenes earlier about her trying to fit in, etc. And then with the PG moment, have PG talk about it but wonder if it's too late for Amanda. -hence, doubt.
colleenlover		#3912	[-]
Posts: 7506 (12/23/07 9:08 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	gretch, I would have Courtney as a frontrunner after episode six -she had all those "lucky" comments, commented on Jamie being a spy, commented on the relationships, and had the lone duck stuff after Leslie left. In Borneo -I actually had started taping them and was aware of it being an edited story. I missed the premiere and never saw it until after the fact. It's hard because I was spoiled that a Pagong won the show (Gervase X, but shushed my friend from telling me who it was) -I deduced it was going to be Colleen. ep 2: "When you come to a foreign country..."; "In the end one will win... (shots of Colleen)"; ep 4: "I'm definitely not a champion..."; Greg telling us he'll have to snap the kitten's neck making it seem like she was in danger; women work together, men sit around; she won't compromise for a million dollars -"I mean, I'm here for the money too, I mean gimme a break..."; and then being Rich's adversary, thinking whoever is going to oppose Rich the most will win.
Cassidy666		#3913	[-]
Posts: 6692 (12/23/07 10:00 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: cassidy, editing did NOT make it look like Amanda had good relationships out there, nor did it make it like she had bad relationships. It wasn't a factor at all -that is just people using logic of the game and not the edit. It wasn't part of the story or a theme. Now that you've said it, I agree that's true. Amanda never really had any relationship building scenes. It was mostly inferred from the scenes where she simply interacted with others and I took that to mean she was on good terms with them, the good cop to Todd's bad cop, since they were established as a pair from the start by editing. colleenlover wrote: Her scene wasn't presented as hypocritical -that's just us connecting the dots. No, it was merely used as a distraction. If she had won, then we probably would have gotten scenes earlier about her trying to fit in, etc. And then with the PG moment, have PG talk about it but wonder if it's too late for Amanda. -hence, doubt. Right. I get what you're saying. The last minute pick-up which depicted Amanda as picking up steam instead of showing doubt should have been a big indicator she was just a distraction. It's good that you stuck to your guns about Todd and Courtney facing each other at the end because I didn't understand why Amanda was considered a strong contender by others when I found her early edit to be quite shallow.
getting real		#3914	[-]
Posts: 987 (12/23/07 10:17 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	cassidy, editing did NOT make it look like Amanda had good relationships out there, nor did it make it like she had bad relationships. It wasn't a factor at all -that is just people using logic of the game and not the edit. It wasn't part of the story or a theme. For the most part, the editing actually went out of its way to hide Amanda's shortcomings. We ultimately gained insight that Amanda's relationships weren't very good, that she often felt unwell, that she played the sympathy card, that she couldn't have beaten Todd based on her relationships with the jurors. It appeared that the editors went out if their way to hide these shortcomings both to avoid making a Todd win obvious and also to explain why she went as far as she did. let's not rewrite history. I don't think Todd had any positive episodes. That's not to say he's not likeable, but that was not because of editing. I'd say he was mostly CP and certainly at times CPN. Absolutely. Look, last season Earl had one momentary lapse into arrogance ("that would be me") and we rushed to latch onto that as the hint of negatiity needed for doubt. Todd had about a million such lapses ("my girls", "you want to vote me out? suffer, bitch", etc. etc) but they were always countered to an extent by his cheerfulness and, above all, by the way the editors gave him context and allowed him to explain his actions. To me that was a dead give-away of how well-tended his edit was. This process can be illustrated by his choice to eat instead of competing. Had he not won, I'm sure he would've been pilloried, especially if the winner was in the competing camp. Instead, he was allowed to explain himself and endearingly shown to possess self-awareness that made it hard for viewers to hold it against him. There was plenty of negativity alright. However, the editing acted as an ameliorating agent throughout. edited to make more sense! Last Edited By: getting real 12/23/07 11:17 AM. Edited 4 times.
Wc3Fanatic		#3915	[-]
Posts: 1831 (12/23/07 11:28 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Again, an overall N over the course of the season means viewers are left with negative feelings towards that character, they never got any redemption at all. What negativity do we really remember with Todd? Being arrogant? That's only halfway, and is that really enough to make him a full fledged N? Also, wasn't Todd P the final episode? Amanda keeps talking about Todd plotting behind her back, but Todd is completely honest. Courtney overhears Todd talking "about her", when all he said was "I don't know how Courtney and Amanda are voting". Amanda and Courtney talk about voting out Todd. All-knowing Todd (like the third straight episode we see him on a cliff watching other people plot; first with Amanda&Erik, then with PG&Amanda, then with Amanda&Courtney) comes over and stops their mudpile of hate. "What're you girls talking about". "umm... nothing". The Final TC was also very pro-Todd -- we are left with no doubt that he is deserving. But then again, he did win... not much edit manipulation needed there?
Kitty Pryde1		#3916	[-]
Posts: 1464 (12/23/07 1:00 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The fact that the reasoning for bringing Todd to the final 3 was "The jury doesn't like him" says something about his negativity. That statement had to be explained.
colleenlover		#3917	[-]
Posts: 7507 (12/23/07 1:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	No, he's just complex. No sappy music is accompanying him. A perfect example of a CPP edit is Kathy's in episode seven, the merge. It is being setup in the editing that John is going to trick her and company to get her for numbers and then vote her out. All these weights are being shown pressing down on her to manipulate her, and she just wants honesty and not be used as a pawn. We're meant to see her side completely and root for her, and she still has scope and endgame ties.
scepticA		#3918	[-]
Posts: 1194 (12/23/07 4:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty, that claim (made by Todd!) that the jury didn't like him was a con. Who else said it? I have no problem with the "consensus" of edgic saying that Todd is overall CPN, mainly because I really don't care about the consensus. I'm far more interested in the individual comments that we make than any consensus. Personally, I found several of Todd's Ns through the season pretty weak. All I can examine, when it comes to whether a person is P or N, is how I personally feel about the player at the end of an episode. Todd was playing with such obvious pleasure in "playing" that for me a lot of things that others perceived as "N" were to me just representations of the fun he was having. The comments that boil down to, "Well, that's just you - maybe to the average fan these scenes came across as N," are equally subjective. N and P are visceral and, I believe, ultimately personal. Yes, SEG can hit us over the head with 'negativity' by having ominous music, forced editing, nasty glances - and even the lighting of the confessionals can create mood. I simply didn't see a lot of that with Todd's overall edit. I know I won't convince any of you, and that's fine. You haven't convinced me either. That's fine too. My favorite player in several seasons won - even though (LOL) he wasn't my edgic winner.
Francois40		#3919	[-]
Posts: 1709 (12/23/07 4:31 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oh, and on the topic of changing guidelines, etc, I say keep everything the way it was. We had Todd pinned as a Top 3 every episode and he was our pick more episodes than any other player. There were just some excellent winner episodes this season; I couldn't worry at all. But can we finally put to rest the "known pair" guideline? Todd and Amanda were a known pair from the beginning, and both made the finals and one of them won. That now makes two seasons this has been "violated", so I hope that guideline can be axed.
BlakeB717		#3920	[-]
Posts: 684 (12/23/07 5:53 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I've never really considered that a guideline to be honest. However, they did have Amanda kind of trying to betray Todd.. BUT with Jeff saying Final Three should stick around for a while, the guideline is bound to be toast regardless.

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S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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