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Relynn wrote:

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See I disagree, yes they have shown that Parvarti angered jury members, but this hasn't been a stressed thing. They had to show Amanda/James interactions. And how close Parvarti/Ozzy once where was not stressed at all (It may be so that Parvarti may not look bad) They had the last season of Parvarti/James end with a hug. And yes, they showed that things weren't great between Parvarti/Eliza. But there were no scenes/confessionals where Eliza waxes poetic about how much she dislikes Parvarti. There has been hints that Parvarti won't be received well by a jury, but there hasn't been any stress on it.
I disagree with the idea that Amanda has no doubts. For whatever reason, they didn't show us that Cirie was in on the Idol plan..(Although according to her voting words she was) They also choose to show us a confessional where she said that she likes Amanda, but from a strategic perspective Amanda going isn't a bad thing. So they haven't clearly shown us that Cirie means to stay loyal to Amanda. Still I do totally agree that there has to be more doubt in Amanda's edit for things to work.. In the sense there has to be questions about Amanda possibly being voted out, etc.

And honestly about Parvarti again, if they wanted to build doubt surely and Parv wins, surely they'd play up how popular Cirie is as well. Because according to interviews, Cirie is extremely well liked, but that isn't played up at all.

You can't just say something had to be shown or not shown without a reason to back it up. Truthfully, the editors don't have to show anything, but they choose to show particular things for two reasons: (1) to provide an entertaining episode on its own merit and (2) to develop a continuing story that ties the series together. The editors didn't have to show James commenting on Parvati's move except as to how it impacted his own position (especially when he was out of the game shortly thereafter through no fault of Parvati's). Yes, there was a little mention by James about how he was doomed, which appears to have been done to add what little suspense was allowed to Jason's blindside, but even that was subsumed to the item of greater editing impact - what James thought of Parvati's play, which could only matter in front of the jury. It is manufactured doubt.

Likewise, you can't point to what wasn't included because we don't know if what wasn't included even exists. Did Eliza "wax poetic" about how much she dislikes Parvati? We don't know. What we do know is that she was against Parvati from the start, tried to reconcile, attempted to target her again after the switch, and tried to reconcile again at the merge and that Parvati specifically spoke up at TC in opposition to her. Do they get along outside of the game? It doesn't matter. What we're shown suggests Eliza is unlikely to vote for Parvati, and most of it didn't need to be shown (particularly the first reconciliation attempt and Parvati's comments at TC) unless they tie into the final TC down the road. Again, it is manufactured doubt.

It is, after all, exactly those "hints" that form the doubt. While there are certainly occasions where the editing smacks us over the head to show us something, it isn't always so blunt, particularly where it comes to the winner.

There was no reason to show Cirie in on the Idol plan (which Insider suggests she was) because it would have removed suspense for the TC where it was unclear whether Amanda had retrieved the idol or not. Either her position will be revealed this next episode or it won't be, and we can judge from that. In any case, the scene where Cirie says she wouldn't turn against Amanda if they had the numbers is key. They now have the numbers. Based upon what we've seen, Amanda is at least as safe as anyone else remaining in the game, and there's no jury doubt whatsoever.

Do they need to build up Cirie if Parvati wins? Not necessarily, especially if Cirie were to leave next. And as long as Amanda is in the game, she remains the supposedly bigger jury threat. I still have my doubts that Cirie faces the jury precisely because we've heard so little about what anyone on the jury thinks of her. But if Cirie is to face the jury, we'll probably be hit with her supposed popularity in this next episode. I'm virtually positive Parvati and Natalie face the jury - figuring out the third between Erik, Amanda, and Cirie is tough because I don't really see any of them there.

Relynn wrote:

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It is, after all, exactly those "hints" that form the doubt. While there are certainly occasions where the editing smacks us over the head to show us something, it isn't always so blunt, particularly where it comes to the winner.

I disagree with the winner, the doubts have almost always been hit over the head...

Oh, really. Sure, Rich got doubt as we all got to see his arrogance. But what were Tina's doubts since you reference her later? She didn't really have any. Why not? Because instead of doubt for her, we got questions of how anyone could stop Colby. There certainly was no specified effort to make it look as though Tina couldn't win. The focus instead was on how Colby was winning everything and would have an easy win against Keith, who nobody liked.

What were Ethan's doubts? Again, he didn't really have any relating specifically to him. Lex was set up as the player to beat in lieu of any doubt regarding what would happen if Ethan made it in front of the jury.

Vee didn't really need manufactured doubt given that her win was so unlikely as it was given the circumstances. What doubt did Brian get? That season may have been the one where the audience was left to create its own doubt by figuring things were being shown too easy for Brian. In the end, the surprise of that season was that Clay pushed it to the final vote.

From this point on, I'd say the inclusion of manufactured doubt has been much more prevalent, but it still hasn't always been blatant. The situations of both Jenna and Sandra didn't require much doubt, but we got it anyway in the form of fights and bad feelings with various players later on the jury.

The doubt for Amber was almost always phrased in terms of whether she and Rob would stick together down the stretch. Ironically, Amber was such an underdog perception wise, the editors actually had to establish a case for her to win (such as by emphasizing Shii Ann's call out). Other than Kathy, we didn't see anyone badmouthing Amber, just Rob.

Chris had obvious doubt from his situation, and then he received jury doubt with the way he betrayed Julie and Eliza. Danni only had doubt from her situation, but then that season was never about her.

Tom's doubt was actually pretty weak - despite all the comments about his heavy-handedness, it was pretty obvious he'd win if he got to the end. The plots against him were created to place whatever doubt could be.

Terry and his idol supplied all the doubt we needed for Aras. That's part situation, but part emphasis given that the challenge was made personal to him.

Yul's doubt may have been the weakest of any winner since Brian. Worrying about jury pandering just showed how untouchable his position in the game really was. The best doubt might have been supplied with a more Colby-like Ozzy.

Did Earl get any doubt? There may have been a point where it seemed that the Foursome might take over the game, but it passed quickly. It almost seemed as if they couldn't get any doubt for Earl and so instead decided to ignore him to focus on the Yau Man - Dreamz sideshow. Yau, after all, was the one player who could have given Earl a challenge at the end.

Todd did get doubt with Jean Robert threatening to punish a stab, with his continually being Peih Gee's target, with his snarky comments, and with Amanda seemingly poised to benefit in front of the jury.


Honestly, I'm not sure either way, because I do think the Amanda would win was to over the head either. I think the fact that they were subtle hints, would suggest that they are perhaps subtly telling us why Parvarti loses. There has been "No I will Never Vote for Parvarti." Or, look how Parvarti's playing up to the jury and the jury is annoyed with Parvarti.

So she's not getting the specific doubt used for Yul or Todd? So what? Look over the whole list of winners - there are lots of way to instill doubt, including making it seem like others have the better track to winning.

But I feel in regards especially to the judgment of Amanda's editing, that people have been to quick to write her off, partially because of last year. I don't think you can go by the first episode, because there have been winners who have had quiet first episodes. (Anyone remember Tina! She was practically invisible!) But there was a reason that Tina was the one not shown. What I'd suggest is perhaps they were doing a similar thing when Amanda was the only Favorite not given a Confessional in the first episode. Even Ami had confessionals, and Ami has had no impact on this game, Amanda has.

I rarely put much emphasis on one event like some others do. The lack of an introduction was not fatal nor is any one episode of low visibility (near invisibility). That said, Amanda has had nothing to suggest she's winner material based upon Edgic. Early on, she was nothing but an extension to the stories of Parvati and Ozzy, and it wasn't until about Tracey's boot that we saw any separation. That's a really long stretch of game without a real identity. For her to suddenly emerge now as a positive heroine isn't that surprising. There have often been late game distractions who look great as winners from purely game logic perspectives, but just like Amanda, they have no roots in the early game. This tradition dates back to Kelly from S1 and includes Amanda herself just last season.

And I don't think well they showed us Parvarti's fat lip (that was kind of hard not see) that suddenly means it's not important that Parvarti didn't have a reaction confessional to her new tribe.)

I still don't think showing the fat lip meant anything one way or another. It wasn't dwelled upon. The only real injury of note was Jonathan's. And that's coming from someone who is fairly sure Parvati is going to win.

And honestly? I think we are due for a Tina like winner. I'm tired of them one hundred percent giving away the winner, at the first episode.

Keep in mind that just because the winner may be obvious to Edgic doesn't necessarily mean the winner is obvious to the general audience. The show is geared toward them, not us, so it doesn't matter to the producers if Edgic has cracked their editing or not. Would it be great if the editors would purposely develop several characters in the Edgic profile? Sure, but I don't expect it - the editors probably prefer a clean narrative where they can get it.