S-16 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Kitty Pryde1		#4421	[-]
Posts: 3952 (05/04/08 3:29 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite
panurge46		#4422	[-]
Posts: 997 (05/04/08 3:36 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: Panurge, I'm not sure I know what you mean. Who was this Anti-Earl? Fiji was IMO the most boring edgic season ever. I suspected Earl as the winner less than 20 minutes into ep 1 If Amanda wins, edgic failed. Period... *it isn't edgic*. Repeat: Parv wins based on edgic. If Cirie wins, edgic fully explains it. Anyone else, and edgic was incorrect. I'll use this to respond to both Sceptic and Probstfan: First, Fiji wasn't about determining who was going to win, Earl was portrayed as the central character early on. Instead, the question was how could he possibly win. Everything seemed to be stacked against him. If you can accept that not every story is a "Whodunit?" then it was a fun story. An Amanda win would have been a definite "Whodunit?" story, the opposite of Earl's story. As far as not being Edgic, I guess I am not Edgic then, at least not in its statistical reduction of a story. I analyse editing by asking: What are the themes and who are the characters? It's what sounds the most logical approach to me. After a few episodes, we can generally determine who is playing the role of the "Bully", the "Victim", The "Dumb Player" the "Hero", the "Tourist", etc... The players who can easily be defined can almost immediately be ruled out. Joel was the "Bully", Jason the "Dumb Player", Kathy the "Victim" while Natalie, Mary, Yau Man, Ami were all presented as "Tourists". They were easily ruled out. More difficult to characterize are players that are on a journey to prove something. They usually get good stories but something is wrong, their stories don't quite fit the themes. Tracy was on a journey to earn respect but she was playing against the Fans rather than against the favorites. That's the simplest way to sum up why I never saw her as a winner. Amanda, at first, could have been seen as a "Tourist", what you guys define as Invisible or UTR, but she was part of the couples' alliance, the big story of the season. That didn't fit into the Tourist mold where the only story a player can get is about enjoying the surroundings (Denise, Sundra and Flica are examples of Tourists with a little story while Brianna and Mary were just there to visit) Amanda wasn't a tourist and I have yet to define her role. That's why I can't eliminate her, not because of subjective ratings. Parvati, I see as the "Clinical Player" and that is a winning role. The clinical player doesn't let emotions get in the way of reaching the goal. Hatch, Vee and Brian are 3 different types of clinical players. But Parvati could also simply be on a journey to prove she isn't just a dumb flirty girl. A confessional where we'd hear her say "I've showed them I wasn't the dumb girl from Cook Islands" would be a story ending one but it hasn't happened yet.
scepticA		#4423	[-]
Posts: 1352 (05/04/08 4:37 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	First, Fiji wasn't about determining who was going to win, Earl was portrayed as the central character early on. Instead, the question was how could he possibly win. Everything seemed to be stacked against him. If you can accept that not every story is a "Whodunit?" then it was a fun story. An Amanda win would have been a definite "Whodunit?" story, the opposite of Earl's story. Earl wasn't simply the central character. He was the edgic winner from early on. The fact that the edit may have seemed to you have the game stacked against him isn't all that important to edgic. If someone is getting the edgic winner's edit, then that's who edgic points to.
AllMenAreIslands		#4424	[-]
Posts: 23630 (05/04/08 5:50 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	That's true, scepticA, but I do like panurge's way of looking at the editing, to answer the question of why is the story being presented this way. It DID look impossible for Earl to succeed, given that he was on the Have Nots tribe. No, it's not the Edgic we've developed, but it's a way to make an "obvious" winner story more interesting to analyze, at any rate. ProbstFan, I think separate guidelines would be worse than adding a tweak to our slowly growing body of guidelines for use in seasons featuring returnees. As I said, this is only the 3rd season with such players, and each time MB has had a different set-up. We had ALL returnees, TWO returnees and now HALF returnees. If Amanda were to win, a tweak would be in order. Anyone other than Parv, Cirie or Amanda actually - now that would mean Edgic failed. If someone like Natalie won, for example, there is no excuse for her edit. It simply isn't a winner's edit, and no tweak would fix things. At least with Amanda we can suggest that it's due to being in back-to-back seasons that they kept her presentation quiet. The thing is, as we talk about it, even if they had kept her quiet at a 1 or 2 viz level let's say to keep people from getting tired of her, were she the winner she would have had a game-defining ep 1 quote. If she is truly missing that all-important remark (and it's not just that we failed to recognize it for what it was), then the current burst of facetime is simply to serve as a distraction and provide suspense and excitement. Last Edited By: AllMenAreIslands 05/04/08 5:53 PM. Edited 1 times.
ProbstFan123		#4425	[-]
Posts: 10096 (05/04/08 6:07 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Edgic has already gone 0 for 2 in seasons with returning players. If it goes 0 for 3, I think we're way past the point where tweaking the guidelines would do any good. At that point it would be obvious that edgic just can't pinpoint a winner in those seasons. Maybe for the very reasons you mentioned above - because in seasons with returning players there will ALWAYS be players with exceptional circumstances and unique situations. Let's say they do an All-Winners edition and Danni or Vecepia wins again with a very UTR edit. Are we going to use the excuse that it was because Tom Westman, Yul, Earl and Todd took up all the screentime and there was no room to give Danni a good edit? Or that her story didn't pick up until the final episodes because they had to explain why Tom lost? Or that she did all of her strategizing off-camera again? No matter how much you tweak the guidelines, it will never be enough. There will always be possible exceptions to the rules that no one can predict in advance.
Trixiego		#4426	[-]
Posts: 14327 (05/04/08 6:32 PM) Kiss me, I'm Adminish Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	but I do like panurge's way of looking at the editing Then you need to take a look at VerucaSalt's editing thread.
ProbstFan123		#4427	[-]
Posts: 10099 (05/04/08 6:34 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Or the Story Arc threads in MESS. Both of which are very interesting reads, but totally separate from edgic and what edgic is trying to do.
Relynn		#4428	[-]
Posts: 468 (05/04/08 7:26 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AllMenAreIslands wrote: That's true, scepticA, but I do like panurge's way of looking at the editing, to answer the question of why is the story being presented this way. It DID look impossible for Earl to succeed, given that he was on the Have Nots tribe. No, it's not the Edgic we've developed, but it's a way to make an "obvious" winner story more interesting to analyze, at any rate. ProbstFan, I think separate guidelines would be worse than adding a tweak to our slowly growing body of guidelines for use in seasons featuring returnees. As I said, this is only the 3rd season with such players, and each time MB has had a different set-up. We had ALL returnees, TWO returnees and now HALF returnees. If Amanda were to win, a tweak would be in order. Anyone other than Parv, Cirie or Amanda actually - now that would mean Edgic failed. If someone like Natalie won, for example, there is no excuse for her edit. It simply isn't a winner's edit, and no tweak would fix things. At least with Amanda we can suggest that it's due to being in back-to-back seasons that they kept her presentation quiet. The thing is, as we talk about it, even if they had kept her quiet at a 1 or 2 viz level let's say to keep people from getting tired of her, were she the winner she would have had a game-defining ep 1 quote. If she is truly missing that all-important remark (and it's not just that we failed to recognize it for what it was), then the current burst of facetime is simply to serve as a distraction and provide suspense and excitement. Maybe, Amanda did have a game winning quote, when she talked about "he not expecting it." Maybe the quote was to remind us that Amanda does what people don't expect her to do. Then there was Johnny Fairplay's "Slow down Johnny, Slow and Steady wins the Race" The thing is Yau man, Eliza, also had I'm hear for the money quotes. (Eliza's in the Introduction thing) and that didn't get them very far. Alexis also looked like she had a game winning quote, they think their way is the only way to win. Who knows.
ProbstFan123		#4429	[-]
Posts: 10103 (05/04/08 7:36 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Actually, if Amanda wins (or Parvati loses), it would probably be easier to say from now on: "In seasons with returning players, the story will be why the 2nd place finisher lost." That would save a lot of time and effort. It still wouldn't really solve anything, though. Because even if this is the story of why Parvati loses (which it isn't), Amanda still wouldn't be the winner pick. It would be Cirie. But again...it's not going to be an issue because Amanda isn't going to win.
AllMenAreIslands		#4430	[-]
Posts: 23631 (05/04/08 7:50 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ProbstFan123 wrote: Edgic has already gone 0 for 2 in seasons with returning players. If it goes 0 for 3, I think we're way past the point where tweaking the guidelines would do any good. At that point it would be obvious that edgic just can't pinpoint a winner in those seasons. Maybe for the very reasons you mentioned above - because in seasons with returning players there will ALWAYS be players with exceptional circumstances and unique situations. Let's say they do an All-Winners edition and Danni or Vecepia wins again with a very UTR edit. Are we going to use the excuse that it was because Tom Westman, Yul, Earl and Todd took up all the screentime and there was no room to give Danni a good edit? Or that her story didn't pick up until the final episodes because they had to explain why Tom lost? Or that she did all of her strategizing off-camera again? No matter how much you tweak the guidelines, it will never be enough. There will always be possible exceptions to the rules that no one can predict in advance. Hmm. So far both returning players seasons HAVE been the story of how the loser lost. Perhaps if there's another returning players season, we would be better off bearing in mind everything we learned in the previous rp seasons, and work out winner picks based as much on who is likely being hidden by the distracting loser. LOL. Trix, where is that thread? I'd like to. I have been reading the Story Arcs thread in MESS.
Relynn		#4431	[-]
Posts: 470 (05/04/08 7:55 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AllMenAreIslands wrote: ProbstFan123 wrote: Edgic has already gone 0 for 2 in seasons with returning players. If it goes 0 for 3, I think we're way past the point where tweaking the guidelines would do any good. At that point it would be obvious that edgic just can't pinpoint a winner in those seasons. Maybe for the very reasons you mentioned above - because in seasons with returning players there will ALWAYS be players with exceptional circumstances and unique situations. Let's say they do an All-Winners edition and Danni or Vecepia wins again with a very UTR edit. Are we going to use the excuse that it was because Tom Westman, Yul, Earl and Todd took up all the screentime and there was no room to give Danni a good edit? Or that her story didn't pick up until the final episodes because they had to explain why Tom lost? Or that she did all of her strategizing off-camera again? No matter how much you tweak the guidelines, it will never be enough. There will always be possible exceptions to the rules that no one can predict in advance. Hmm. So far both returning players seasons HAVE been the story of how the loser lost. Perhaps if there's another returning players season, we would be better off bearing in mind everything we learned in the previous rp seasons, and work out winner picks based as much on who is likely being hidden by the distracting loser. LOL. Trix, where is that thread? I'd like to. I have been reading the Story Arcs thread in MESS. But is this because they purposely want to make returning seasons about how people lost or is it because the losers are bigger characters than the winners. Rob was a much more out there and manipulative guy then Amber. Amber was a UTR quiet player who basically hid behind big mean Rob. Danni was a quieter player who did most of her strategy off camera. She was also a come from behind winner because wasn' the rest of her tribe taken out? Stephanie was also Stephanie. This big time popular character who everyone loved in Palau, so maybe they really felt like they needed to explain why Stephanie lost. All I'm saying is that some of this may also be about the type of players the winners were too.
colleenlover		#4432	[-]
Posts: 8100 (05/04/08 8:07 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Proper storytelling is still my standard too. Pyschology goes into this. No one could tell me someone like Amanda wasn't giving confessionals early- "Oh, my God- I just got done doing this, and I'm doing it again? Am I crazy?"
Relynn		#4433	[-]
Posts: 471 (05/04/08 8:25 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: Proper storytelling is still my standard too. Pyschology goes into this. No one could tell me someone like Amanda wasn't giving confessionals early- "Oh, my God- I just got done doing this, and I'm doing it again? Am I crazy?" True, but I think that we have seen Amanda's story...Even if Pavarti/Cirie have been more focused. She may have been hidden a bit for the early episodes, but we still had an understanding of where Amanda was in the game. Who she was alligned with, what was going on from the very beginning. In the case of Amanda, everyone knew the girl was already a player. We saw her play in China. Nobody, new that Parvati would be as good of a player. And beside Parvati's decisions are what have really controlled this game, whether she wins or loses. Same goes with Stephanie's decisions in Guatamela. But it doesn't mean that Amanda hasn't always been in the background, nor that she hasnt' moved to the forefront sine Episode 5. Because she has become more and more of a bigger character. In contrast, with Natalie, we have had no idea of where she was at, during most of the game. Same goes for Alexis. There was no discussion about them being in alliances etc.
GretchenIsMyGod		#4434	[-]
Posts: 3079 (05/04/08 8:39 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	:D! kane?! survivor game fanfiction playing old white guy? jilliian lindsay lohan here/ being real lindsay - y
Venatrix Avia		#4435	[-]
Posts: 1 (05/05/08 3:23 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	delurks shyly AMAI, VerucaSalt's editing thread is here. Be warned, though: although the regulars on that thread don't like source spoilers and strive to avoid them, there is occasionally a drive-by poster who doesn't know the conventions of the thread, and therefore (presumably led astray by the fact that the thread lives in a "spoilers forum") refers to a known source spoiler in a post. So it's definitely a read at your own risk sort of place. relurks Last Edited By: Venatrix Avia 05/05/08 3:26 AM. Edited 2 times.
craig		#4436	[-]
Posts: 12995 (05/05/08 4:15 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Jury Relationships Parvati has strong links with Eliza, Ozzy, Jason, James, and Alexis. Could see why they would or wouldn't vote for her. Amanda - virtually nothing with Eliza, okay with the rest. Cirie - weak with James and Alexis, little idea why they would or wouldn't vote for her. Editing of reward missed a chance to show Cirie\Alexicat relationship. She sees J\A injuries as getting her closer to the million. (Imagine if Parv had said that everyone would be all "what a bitch!") Last Edited By: craig 05/05/08 4:17 AM. Edited 1 times.
AllMenAreIslands		#4437	[-]
Posts: 23633 (05/05/08 5:56 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Venatrix Avia wrote: delurks shyly AMAI, VerucaSalt's editing thread is here. Be warned, though: although the regulars on that thread don't like source spoilers and strive to avoid them, there is occasionally a drive-by poster who doesn't know the conventions of the thread, and therefore (presumably led astray by the fact that the thread lives in a "spoilers forum") refers to a known source spoiler in a post. So it's definitely a read at your own risk sort of place. relurks Cheers, Venatrix Avia! And thanks for the head's up on content. :)
Kitty Pryde1		#4438	[-]
Posts: 3957 (05/05/08 7:45 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Parvati has a strong connection to Jason? That's news to me.
guatemala fanfic	EPISODE 12 RATINGS	#4439	[-]
Posts: 3159 (05/05/08 8:36 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Survivor: Micronesia - Episode 12 (Ratings Watchdog) Here are my final ratings for Episode 12. Sorry, I've been very busy this weekend, so no explanations again for this week only. Dabu Tribe Alexis: MOR3 Amanda: CPP5 Cirie: CPM3 Erik: MOR2 James: MORP3 Natalie: UTR2 Parvati: CPP3 POSSIBLE WINNERS: 1) Parvati ELIMINATED BY EDGIC: ~~Chet~~, ~~Alexis~~, Erik, ~~Jason~~, ~~Kathy~~, ~~Mary~~, ~~Mikey~~, Natalie, Amanda, ~~Ami~~, ~~James~~, ~~Jonathan~~, ~~Yau-Man~~
AllMenAreIslands		#4440	[-]
Posts: 23634 (05/05/08 8:43 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Kitty Pryde1 wrote: Parvati has a strong connection to Jason? That's news to me. Sure she does! She stood next to him for 6 hours in that challenge.

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