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What winning moves? Point one out other than winning immunity.

I can name several off the top of my head:

Allying with Heidi = Winning move

Getting Deena to side with the younger women for numbers when she was vulnerable and play "leader" only to cut her later = Winning move

Helping to coordinating a inter-tribe alliances with Cesternino, Heidi, and others which got rid of people like Roger, Dave, Christy, etc. while never being the front-man to take the blame if she ever fell out of power which she did = Winning move

I could go on, but apparently you only count direct and obvious moves done in the last 2 rounds as counting as "winning moves"

She tore down one alliance herself, and the other collapsed as well. She had nothing to do with Christy's indecisiveness or Rob's paranoia, and she outlasted Heidi because Heidi was actually trying to win.

What alliance did she tear down? Shawna got booted by both her and Deena (largely Deena's decision) which was a good decision when all was said and done. And Deena was being too controlling and would've ousted someone who Jenna's increasingly closest allies and a challenge shield. Deena would be strategic and more UTR and as we know, she was in a F2 alliance with Cesternino. Heidi was targeted over Jenna well before her breakdown so you're wrong about the, "She got lucky because Heidi was TRYING and Jenna wasn't" excuse

(I suppose if you could convince me she threw her pity party as an act to put the target on Heidi, that would be good strategy, but then her giving Heidi the immunity idol the round before kind of weakens that argument. Her giving it away only proved she preferred for Heidi to stay in the game if the vote didn't go for Christy. It didn't ensure Christy left since both Christy and Butch were smart enough to switch to Jenna. Only because Rob and Matt had cut the deal with Heidi did she survive the vote.)

I never said that. I don't think she had her meltdown to stay UTR. I think she was legitimately suffering and that you're being awfully judgmental for an armchair viewer

Your argument that she outlasted Alex, Christy, and Heidi because of her own efforts is terribly strained. It had more to do with who she was than what she did.

Well perhaps she can answer this for us, but I believe she knew enough not to play "leader" in Survivor, which amusingly you think is a good thing since that's like Survivor 101. I don't think it was an accident she let certain people take the lead like Alex or Heidi despite probably being better connected than them in her alliance, and she was at least involved in the arrangements strategizing that got Christy booted. I never said she was 100% responsible for any of those boots, but it seems like you're trying to assign 0% and 100% credit to people for certain boots, and it just doesn't work that way in a complex interdependent game like Survivor. That is simplistic unilateral thinking

OK, so what is her worst potential F4? I think you are talking out of your rear.

I prefer to be judged on the content of my logic as opposed to making character attacks and assumptions about where I'm coming from. I don't know why you are making this so personal

None of Butch, Matt, or Christy were widely respected, and Deena was making enemies. So Jenna decided to team with the remaining alpha male, the likeable funny guy who seemed to be friends with everyone, and her partner who had most of the same advantages in a vote, but was generally more strategic, all while basically alienating everyone outside of that group? Seems she couldn't have picked worse to me.

Alex was not well liked. Christy disliked him like the most based on her in-game confessionals, and he'd backstabbed all the men on the jury. And not everyone HAS to take the goat strategy y'know. Not everyone is as disliked as Heidik. Jenna might've been able to win with tougher jury competition (i.e. Yul), so without proof of a loss, you're mainly pessimistically speculating which amounts to nothing

She didn't win with a backup plan - she won because of immunity and because her allies got placed on the jury.

I didn't say it was her "backup plan". She did adapt however, which is just as impressive. She made new plans once Cesternino had foiled her main one, and clearly they worked like when Heidi and her capitalized on Christy's wishy-washiness. Also, you have to remember how paranoid that Jenna made Cesternino. By taking a stand and putting herself out there, she called out Cesternino in front of everyone putting him on edge and making him feel completely vulnerable. It's probably a big reason why he was willing to boot Christy, to ensure that the target wasn't him. Jenna deserves major credit for helping to transform him into an emotional player being controlled by his fear that round, when he should've rationally just eliminated Heidi or Jenna once immunity was given away. That was perhaps a million dollar losing decision, since Jenna ended up being the challenge threat that ended his game

Winning immunity obviously is very simple strategically, but just as effective. It's like your blaming a tribe immunity win as lucky because those people didn't have to fight for their survival each round. It's just a silly argument. If her allies didn't get placed on the jury, then she'd be in control going to the end on her own accords, so either way she'd win based on solid positioning. That's a horrible argument.

Alex wanted to side with the girls, but he wanted to do so because he felt he could beat them, both at the F3 immunity and the final vote. He was trying to put Rob on the jury without hard feelings, but he stupidly moved much too soon. That Alex wanted to go with the girls only reinforces how weak an F4 this was for Jenna.

Just because HE thought he might be able to win against them doesn't mean he was going to though

The jury phase isn't really part of the effort of getting there. It basically amounts to framing what did occur in the game in the best possible light in order to get votes. Usually, though, the votes are determined by what has already occurred. I won't deny that Jenna did OK in front of the jury, but then given the way she got to the end, there wasn't much she had to explain (as opposed to Matt who had a lot to explain and decided it would be simpler not to).

That's true. Matt did do poorly in his jury speech but Jenna gets credit for being solid. Amanda who also had all the actual outlasting accomplishments she could've used to make her case at final jury completely blew it, so you should be able to see the contrast in jury management abilities. Amanda has perhaps a more impressive outlasting game than Jenna, but her jury result was like the complete opposite of Jenna's. Of course, Amanda had a much tougher juror competitor (Todd), but she even did worse than Courtney too. Had Amanda at least gave a Jenna level speech, I think she'd have probably won and at the least netted more votes than Courtney

Alex and Rob were allies. In fact, Alex was Rob's closest ally after Deena was voted out. That's why Rob felt betrayed when Alex told him he wouldn't look to save him at F4.

OR Rob considered Jenna better or Alex/Jenna be able the same level in terms of being allies, but flipped because then Jenna/Heidi would be running the show. He never really said he felt "betrayed". His response wasn't really emotional but strategic, because he didn't want to settle for 4th. He wasn't crying about how Alex had hurt his feelings, he was looking at his options. Guess who would be in prime position of the Heidi-Jenna-Alex F3? Hmmm...In many ways, what Cesternino did was specifically thwarting the game of 1 of his biggest strategic threats Jenna whether he was aware of it or not

Just because Alex blew it doesn't mean the game wasn't in Alex's hands at that point.

In a Alex-Jenna-Heidi F3, Jenna is in the most control not Alex. The only way to bring Heidi and Alex together is if Jenna became this obvious jury monster threat. And that's assuming, they let Alex get that far. Perhaps at around F4, Heidi-Jenna feel Alex has outlived his usefulness, and decide to boot him over the 4th person like Christy or Butch or whoever they strung along. And finally, if Jenna goes ahead and let's Alex go to the end with her, she STILL probably wins, because Jenna's social game was better than Alex's. Alex was part of the high school clique too, and he wouldn't have been the strategic leader--Jenna would

Jenna, remember, had just blown up her prior alliance in order to go with Alex instead.

Technically, Deena blew it up, turning on her ally Alex, and Jenna just diverted the target (ala Todd and Jean-Robert boot, Twila and Leann boot, etc.)

I don't know for certain that Alex would have beaten Jenna, but if he lost to her under those circumstances, it would have been because Alex had turned people off moreso than because others (besides Heidi) liked Jenna better. (Sometimes, Amber beats Rob after all.)

You're basically telling me that Jenna would've won because she had a better social game. Better than Matt and now Alex with her removing or controlling the other jury threats. I fail to see how that makes her a weaker winner

This happened after the point in the game where Jenna dumped Deena for Alex so it doesn't really come into play, and it was a direct action by Alex. Yes, Alex controlled the game and promptly sank his own game.

You are not controlling the game when you are 1 of the boot targets during a round. To say that, it would mean that Alex had decided that he was going to be a potential bootee for that round which is ludicrous. If you don't understand this, then I can't help you. Jenna saved Alex's butt. She was the heroine, and he was in the damsel in distress in that situation. I don't know if you have male biases, are a big Alex fan, or just really hate Jenna, but I don't know why you keep demanding that Alex was in control and such a huge jury threat

And that doesn't make sense telling me all this "doesn't really come into play". We are talking about Jenna's position in the game when Cesternino flipped. You thought Jenna was not a leader, and I was demonstrating that at that point in the game, Jenna didn't need to step forward and overtly take charge of things. She had the most power and thus control anyways

After the twist, Rob's main loyalty was to Deena, and it probably remained so until the others ganged up on her, and he decided not to oppose them. But his secondary alliance was with Alex. Until Alex goofed, Rob was likely to stick with him through F4 at least.

Do you have a source explaining that Rob favored Alex over Jenna for sure? We know Alex was probably 1 of his best allies back on the 1st tribe, but they'd grown significantly more distant in the swap tribe with Rob allying up with Deena, him saying Alex needed to get his head out of his ass, and with the Alex-Shawna showmance. Then, at the merge, we saw Deena's top allies, Cesternino and Jenna planning things out away from all others and talking about going to the F3 together. So at the least, we know Rob had strong strategic connections to Jenna via Deena. I don't mind assuming that Cesternino was closer to Alex for argument's sake though, because you may be correct and quite frankly it really doesn't matter because Jenna still is most powerful either way

How can you have control or be the leader if you are following what others want to do?

Control = Getting people to make the decisions that you want to be made. It's getting your way, and there's more than 1 way to go about doing it. There is "soft power" or what I've called subtle game control. And then there's obvious overt game control known as "hard power". Generally speaking, soft power is better as a form of control, because it's sneakier and more effective. The only time "hard power" is superior to "soft power" is when you need to take credit for certain game moves in front of a jury who wants to know that you played a "hard" game, and they're not sharp enough (or care) to read between the lines of your subtle game moves. In this case, Jenna had the most "control" (until Cesternino took it away) of her alliance, despite not having to "lead" it. Leading is a form of hard power and is often times only a superficial exhibition of power, when someone with soft power is pulling strings behind the scenes

Could she have exercised power? Perhaps, based upon her relationships. But she didn't.

She didn't need to. And obviously, she could've because she booted the supposed "leader" of her alliance Deena CLEARLY demonstrating the amount of power she could wield when she wanted to

Again, to break down the power of the high school alliance:

Jenna Heidi Alex Rob C.
Heidi Jenna Jenna Alex or Jenna
Alex or Rob Alex or Rob Heidi Alex or Jenna
Alex or Rob Alex or Rob Rob Heidi



Now, let's assume the worst for Jenna, meaning that Rob definitely favored Alex over her. Then we have:

Jenna Heidi Alex Rob C.
Heidi Jenna Jenna Alex
Alex or Rob Alex or Rob Heidi Jenna
Alex or Rob Alex or Rob Rob Heidi


So overall:
#1 - Jenna = 1, 1, 2
#2 - Alex = 1, 2, 2 (at best)
#3 - Heidi = 1, 2, 3
#4 - Rob = 2, 2, 3 (at best)

Jenna was in the most control of the high school alliance despite not having to step forward and lead it. As long as that alliance prospered, Jenna would, which is why there was no reason to step forward and overtly lead it. The problem was that Alex made the guy at the bottom of the totem pole (Rob) realize the state of his position, and that got Rob to hurt Jenna's game, which she couldn't have necessarily predicted. If SHE had ran her mouth to Rob then it's be 1 thing, but it was Alex screwing her up inadvertently

She ousted Rob at least as much for revenge as because she saw Matt as the easier F2 opponent. She would have voted for Rob at the prior TC if Matt hadn't talked her out of it. That F3 decision was one where emotional play and strategic play coincided quite heavily. Again, the jury phase is not a decision so the strategic v. emotional divide doesn't really even come into play there.

I see what you're saying, and on 2nd thought I can concede that it wasn't really an emotional thing at all. Strategically though, she made the correct decision which others may not have not made

Yes, she benefited from having her allies booted before her, but to say she planned for them to do so is very weak.

I never said she planned for them to do so. But I wouldn't be surprised if positioning was in the back of her mind subconsciously. I assume not playing "leader" was part of her strategy, which was largely what got her "allies booted before her" basically. I doubt it's an accident she was the best positioned of her high school clique alliance. Most people know at least enough to surround themselves with the people they can trust the most, which is essentially increasing one's power

Truthfully, based upon who she is, any allies she would have had would have booted before her, reducing the value you are assigning to this.

And who is she? If you're referring to her being a young female model who is underestimated due to her demographic and other people's prejudices, that doesn't really take away from her, because it's an advantage she'd probably be able to exploit over and over again in a variety of different scenarios without really trying. That doesn't "reduce the value" I am assigning to this at all

Perhaps so. Even less reason to be impressed.

Why? Because she was smart by looking out for herself and was responsible for her success?

Because she was against Matt, not because of any outstanding play on her own right outside of winning the immunities.

"Because she was against Matt" only goes so far. Almost all the winners have gone against their own goats in order to win, so Jenna is not unique in this aspect. If all the winners were characterized by tough competition and outstanding gameplay trumping their runner-ups, it'd be one thing. If Jenna's victory margin was smaller, also you might have a point. Yes Matt was a goat (after Roger was booted), but Jenna appropriately trounced him in the finals which calls attention to her own abilities. She was the 1st blow-out winner. Heidik, 1 season before, brought a goat and BARELY won. I know it's a what-if situation, but Matt is a far bigger jury threat than Clay was. As socially inept as Matt might be, everyone knew he was a good guy and a hard worker, which were the doubts people had about Clay. And Matt was nowhere near compared to the abrasiveness of Twila or Katie. So spare me the whole Jenna didn't have "outstanding play on her own right" speech. Most winners aren't any different than her

The term "goat" refers to someone a player cultivates to bring along with them through the game in order to beat in the final vote. So no, a "goat" is not up for grabs.

Well, it depends on your definition, and yours is kind of silly IMO. "Cultivates"? What does that mean? Goats aren't usually made, they just are the most disliked and weakest jury competitors of a group of people. Brian didn't make Clay blow up Jake. Twila was ranting at Eliza long before Chris came around although he might've helped to fuel it. The idea that someone specifically "cultivates" a goat and "owns" it, is an archaic and simplistic idea that's not really realistic or accurate. If by "cultivate," you mean the person who allies with them first, seeing their goat potential and tries to protect them through the game so that they can win with that goat, I understand what you mean. But those "goats" are still up for grabs in that anyone can use them, which is what Jenna did. It doesn't really make sense to fault her for using a perfectly good goat to her advantage. It's like blaming Hatch for using a loyal Rudy or Tina for exploiting Jerri's abrasivness

Sure, another player can win final immunity and choose to face the "goat", but that just shows the risk of the "goat" strategy.

Exactly. No one "owns" the goat

In Amazon, Matt ceased to be any kind of "goat" when Rob made the poor choice to get rid of Christy. That gave control of the game to Matt, who ultimately shaped the endgame. Rob still wanted to face Matt, but he could no longer control the situation.

Yea and then Jenna exploited the opportunity. It seems like you're especially knocking her for having that opportunity or "good luck" which is silly because all winners have had their own winning opportunities and "good luck"

Life after the game isn't exactly a great indication of how they performed in the game. Most people who want to stay connected to the show realize there is little point in maintaining animosities. I have already discussed Deena's vote, and it wasn't because she was a big fan of Jenna.

Well obviously, because Jenna booted her. But she obviously was alright with her enough to vote for her, which is even better. It means it was a "respect vote" if it's wasn't a social one. If you're talking about how it's a vote "against Matt"--that's fine. But it's weird that you're harping on it, when most of the winners get votes that way. It's the norm not the exception

Because you don't like Roger, his opinion doesn't count? That's not a great argument.

*Sigh* Fine, if you want me to elaborate. Well, for one thing, you have not provided any evidence that Roger didn't like her. Two, few people liked Roger, so him not liking them back is kind of understandable and not unique to Jenna. Three, why would Roger like Jenna, when she had never been on a tribe with him and would've been his total enemy? That's not really a poor social game but strategic circumstances

The point was that it wasn't just Christy. Jeanne and Joanna may not have held anything particularly against Jenna, but they decried the work ethic of all the "cute girls", and that actually appeared on the show.

Ah. Well now that you know that it seems like a lot of it was editing magic, and that nothing was specifically held against Jenna, then I'm sure it's a non-issue. No one cares if Jenna wow'ed them with social game, because Jeanne and Joanna were non-jurors. If Jenna had to hurt her social game to ensure she performed well in challenges or made the proper long-term alliances, then good for her. She won and still by a 6-1 margin. This is not a popularity contest. You don't have to make everyone like you. And assuming J and J disliked her (which I don't think is even true), and heck let's throw in Roger, then that's still only like 1/4 of the cast at most. Oh yeah, and Christy STILL voted for Jenna, so apparently even THAT didn't hurt Jenna all that much

No, Jenna is not to blame for Alex's misstep or Rob's betrayal, but she is responsible for her share of actions isolating "Team Crazy", which gave Rob all he needed to recruit votes for his move.

Had Alex not made Rob jump ship though, it would've been alright for her not to manage Team Crazy, because that would make her look wishy-washy and Kelly of Borneo. If she built superficial bonds with them and then immediately booted them, that might piss off these future jurors even more. In any case, it didn't really matter, since the only Team Crazy vote she lost was Butch's (and probably mainly to allowing him to get booted at F4) and Matt was her jury competitor

It is not a non-issue. Just because something turns out a certain way doesn't mean that the best method for achieving that result was used.

Well I mean yeah, but you're harping on these details which we will never know and that's what I mean. You can speculate in circles, but you're outright assuming these little nuances are true. If we knew for sure about these things, it'd be one thing, but we don't. Your entire arguments are predicated on these speculations, so it makes it look like you're trying way too hard to bash Jenna. And MOST winners didn't achieve the very "best method" for achieving their victories, so I don't know why you're all up on Jenna for that

Nor, in Alex's case, does it mean it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Like I said, it might have happened anyways, but that should have sealed the deal. Alex talked about how he hated that the people talked about integrity. Had he been annoyed enough with everybody, maybe he wouldn't have given his vote to Jenna automatically. Instead, it was a shoe-in. Second, knowing that Alex was probably her vote, Jenna could focus in on getting the votes of other people that she needed like calling Rob the best player on the jury (example of a flattery jury move that happened before Todd used it). It's a lot easier to hone in your jury speech and tailor it appropriately when you can focus in on a select group of people rather than worry about winning over everyone on the jury

... and set him up in charge to sink his own alliance and nearly drag all his allies with him.

Which Jenna couldn't have known in advance. She got unlucky and that happens. She proved her ability more than many when she still persevered over that HORRIBLE luck

I responded this time against my better judgement, but I have no wish to spend time continuing to do so, especially when I see from the other threads you've "contributed" to how you actually proceed to argue points with volume rather than logic.

Well apparently you have already made up your mind about me, so now I see why you've been so negative about this debate. And sadly for you, my contributions involve both volume and sound logic, neither of which have to be mutually exclusive properties. But naturally, because you can't counter my rationality, you must resort to attacking the size of my posts in a sad attempt to delegitimize my viewpoints

Jenna has self interest in making her victory seem more deserved. As such, she'll color facts toward her benefit moreso than necessarily lie about things. Her posts above regarding leadership are a good example. Instead of her not leading, she tries to make it sound better by saying that things were group decisions. I have no doubt that some form of consensus was used, but decisions still had to come from somewhere.

Yes we are aware that she has a stake in her reputation. That doesn't make us her blind followers. And being the decision-maker, doesn't mean others aren't guiding the decisions. If someone is making a call that you want to happen, then it's even better because you are not on the radar and you get what you want accomplished done. Hence the term "puppet master"

Well said craig

From CBS' own recap of the episode:

"Matthew's gracious act at the reward challenge led Rob to believe that Matthew was now more of a threat than an ally. He approached Jenna with a new plan, which would involve taking her with him to the final 2. "I have a better chance of winning against you than I do against Matthew" he explained.

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/survivor6/show/episode11/s6story4.shtml

You have explained your point well, and I agree with this now. I had forgotten that Rob talking to Jenna was prompted by his questioning of his ability to win against Matt

Matt caused Rob to become paranoid. He mainly laughed at Jenna's earlier threats, saying she could write his name down if she wanted.

Rob was a tough guy then, but when the Christy vote came around, we saw him telling the camera that he was concerned at Christy's wishy-washiness. He was not laughing when Jenna was calling him out in front of everybody and asking him if he was making similar end-game deals with all the other tribe members. Matt caused Rob to reconsider his plan, and Christy/Jenna probably made him feel a lot more
unstable than he normally was. It was the 1st time he was really put under direct spotlight and put on the radar in the whole game. It's not 100% credit to Matt and 0% to Jenna. It doesn't work that way, even if Matt started the ball rolling

I have two reasons to call the cute girls a "clique". First, they didn't place themselves "in the social center of the tribe". They put themselves on one side of the tribe and, if Deena had chosen the other side, they would have been voted out.

You do realize that a clique is an alliance too right? In this case, you use it as a negative connotation

As I recall, Deena said she chose the younger women because she could manipulate them better. That's not exactly an endorsement.

Yeah, but we saw how well she manipulated them huh?

Second: The Fat 5 was in response to the other 4 guys making their own alliance and it was Chris' way to save his own skin. It was a strategic alliance. Not like the popular girls choosing to sit together at the high school cafeteria.

Yeah, you're right. The girls had absolutely no strategic thoughts whatsoever. They were there for friendship and hanging out at the "high school cafeteria"...in...the...uh, Amazon. I take it you were never 1 of the popular kids in high school based on your obvious resentment panurge46

The same applies to the Koror 5 and even LaMina's boys club. They chose to align to have the strongest group together to beat the other team.

Yeah, the strongest! Which is why Terry and the boys aligned with strong Dan right? Or how about those Koror 5! We all know how critical Katie was for her her challenge strength over that useless Coby who was only marginally useful in a variety of different challenges including the one with Gregg, the wrestling one against Ibe, as the tribe's representative puzzle director for the water puzzle challenge, etc. They aligned with the strongest! Really!

Even if Terry's strategy was wrong and LaMina would probably have been much better had they included Misty and Sally, it was still strategy.

Yeah, but Jenna's had no strategy. None!

I have no problem with Jenna crying at F5. My problem is that whole plan she set with Heidi because she wanted to go home. Giving Heidi immunity was done because Jenna was ready to leave and Heidi would have a better chance of beating Rob.

Um, that happened before her meltdown, and Rob had just gotten through with telling her that he wanted to go to the end that very same episode. The vote was between Christy and Heidi, so protecting Heidi to focus sights on Christy? Risky but not a bad idea

It wasn't crumbling under pressure like the Ian and Amanda, that happens even to pro athletes (ask Cowboys' fans!). It was a calm decision made to quit the game and cause trouble before leaving.

Oh here come the excuses. Yes, we know that anyone can choke. I don't blame them for being human. Jenna didn't choke though, so she should get a lot of credit for that and she totally doesn't. I'm mildly surprised a female with a 2 round immunity run and a solid jury performance and an unconventional edit isn't appreciated more at Sucks considering all the negativity regarding "predictability" and nice male wins of the newer seasons. But then again, consistency has never been this place's strong point