Eh! All this discussion of most overrated/underrated winner is a waste of time. There are so many variables that affect who wins that I say that all the winners are equally deserving. Let's say that Hunter was a member of Koror instead of Tom and that Tom was a member of Maaramu instead of Hunter. Under those conditions, Hunter could have easily won while Tom could have been voted out early with that bunch of losers. Who you get stuck is really an important factor. Cesternino would have been toast on new Ravu whereas Anthony might have done real well in place of Rob in the Amazon season. You could make a similar argument by swapping Tina Wesson with Ruth Marie or Ethan with Ryan O. Under different circumstances it's not difficult to see how someone who made it far in one season could get booted early in a different season and vice versa. Of course there are also many contestants who can't win under any circumstances.
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Most Overrated/Underrated Player
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 tullfan2 |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 4029 (03/27/07 3:44 PM) Registered User |
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Pulau Tiga |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 5765 (03/27/07 3:54 PM) Registered user |
Quote:They're all just as deserving, they all played the best game for their particular season, and it's impossible to say how any of them would have done in a different setting. This thread is not to debate any of that. It's to explain why we respect the games of certain Survivors more than others, and to speculate as to how well any given Survivor would do in many of the situations we've seen on this show. Clearly Tina played the best game of her cast for Australia, Ethan played the best game of his cast for Africa, and they both deserve their wins equally. But I respect one of them as a winner far more than the other, I feel one of them played a far more dynamic and all-inclusive game, and I feel one of them would do better in far more Survivor scenarios than the other. None of those things are sure, they're all completely based in personal opinion, and none of them affect how well either Survivor did or how much either Survivor deserved their win. If everyone thought in absolutes like you are and believed that any thread like this is worthless because it involves complete speculation and personal opinions of what determines a strong Survivor game, then LTS would be a pretty dull place. |
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electrikneon |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 3074 (03/27/07 4:03 PM) Registered User |
Overrated:
Tina - Didn't do anything besides land in the majority tribe and have a sucker as an ally. Ethan - Won challenges. Danni - Won challenges. Underrated: Jenna - Did more than conveniently win challenges. Amber - Understood the game and how to manipulate the people. |
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Kirblar |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 8576 (03/27/07 4:10 PM) Registered user |
A lot of it comes down to (At least for me): "Did they get to the end through their own power, or did other people screw up repeatedly, causing that person to win by default." Ethan is in that latter category for me. Had Brandon/Kim not been so self-destructive, he would never have made the finals.
Tom, on the other hand, survived numerous coup attempts, and was able to maneuver himself to the finals with a massive bullseye on his back. As much as I don't like Tom personally, I do respect his game immensely. |
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finishthemoff |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 15489 (03/27/07 4:13 PM) Registered user |
Shane would vote for Aras over Cirie. Shane hate Circie because he think she is superfical. That is all to it.
Yul isn't *that* old. |
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Kirblar |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 8576 (03/27/07 4:29 PM) Registered user |
Yeah, Cirie would have likely needed Danielle to eliminate Aras for her.
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fanofcoils |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 3177 (03/27/07 4:38 PM) I need a life |
If Ethan won the final 3 IC, who would he have taken to the end? Lex or Kim? Who should he take to the end? Keep in mind, Lex and Tom may be mad at Ethan if he takes Kim J over Lex since Lex was in a much tighter alliance with him.
Quote: Becky became friends with Brad as well. |
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Kirblar |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 8576 (03/27/07 4:40 PM) Registered user |
Quote: It actually didn't matter. He was getting Theresa/(Kim/Lex)/ and Tom's vote no matter what, and would have easily picked up a 4th from one of the early jurors. |
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JaMalle |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 4855 (03/27/07 4:48 PM) Registered User |
Quote: Brian votes Jed- guranteed because he hated Clay Jan- guranteed because she wa sa goat. Clay votes Penny/Ken/Erin- guranteed, because they saw through Brian and was manipulated into thinking Clay was on their side. Up in the air: Helen- All Clay had to do was answer her question, and he would have won. Because Clay was such a hard head fool, he refused to answer her question, sealing Brian's victory whether he'd apologized or not to Helen. Ted- even with the accuasation of Clay being racist, his vote was 50/50 because of Brian backstabbing him. So Clay goes into the F2 with a 4 votes that he controlled, 2 votes against him, and one vote up in the air. You tell me who should have won. Quote: puhlease. Quote: due to the blunders of others..... He didn't get to the end through power of his own. Ian/Katie carried him as their third, and waited too late to try to get rid of him. Even without the help of her F2 partner, Katie tried to dispose of tom. guess who was too busy sucking Tom's dong? Caryn! So Tom is very overrated imho. Quote: Technically, he was a goat, but he was a very strong strategic goat that didn't sit back and let jury votes slide by. Sure, he still made HORRIBLE moves because of his lack of social skills, but day by day he slowly tried to turn the table against the master. It all goes back to his stubborn personality in not answering Helen's TC question.... It would have made Thailand even worse of a season, but I would have enjoyed that over Brian winning. LAMBER SUCKS!!! And the next All Star winner will probably suck too. |
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King Lord |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 340 (03/27/07 5:14 PM) Registered user |
Okay, I'm going to have to change my pick for most overrated winner yet again! I'm sorry if I seem wishy-washy, but you guys come up with very compelling arguments. Especially Pulau Tiga:
Quote: Good point. Yul was indeed mindful of the jury, with the promise he made to Adam. And his allies, especially Ozzy and Sundra, could have flushed out the idol if they really wanted to. So I suppose the idol wasn't the only reason he won, but it was a MAJOR reason, so I can't rank him too high on my winner's list. Now I'm left with figuring out my most overrated winner (my most underrated will remain Vecepia). I'll mull it over and get back to y'all soon. |
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El Syd 01 |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 4 (03/27/07 5:41 PM) Registered user |
Most underrated = Vee and Amber. I hate seeing their games being bashed while others such as Chris, Tom, Sandra, Aras, or Danni are praised. Being the loudest or having the highest IQ or winning a million challenges doesnt mean having the best strategy or deserving it anymore than anyone else.
Vecepia to me was the original Rob C. She jumped between alliances, adapted when she needed too and had a clear understanding to the game. She never relied on immunity like Tom, or needed to be spoon fed strategy like Chris. Was it the most exciting? Heck no...but she knew what was going on the entire game. I second whoever said her fireside chat at f5 was brilliant. It's instances like that which best showcase her subtle strategy, but it definitely was there. Amber is probably the reality show contestant who repeatedly gets the shortest end of the stick. From being edited to being Jerris sidekick to getting all of the blame when she didnt hook up with the earliest Ruperts, Lis and Rodger. That whole scenario never made sense me after all, why should Amber even begin to believe Lis and Rodger would vote with her when just ONE round earlier they voted against her not to mention they were completely under Tinas spell. Once Amber was gone, Tina had the game in the bag (which is one of the reasons I also think Tina is underrated but not so much as Amber and Vee). We also cant forget the context of S2 people who jumped alliances or backstabbed were still considered pariahs Im sure Lis and Amber were both jockeying for that Colleen/ sweetheart role. And while Lis got it, seeing her on the View and Amber on TAR shows she was more deserving of it IMO. Watching ASS, it was also clear to me (especially by Alicias boot) that she was the only one still focused on winning. While others were all about fighting over the rice, or calling each other stupid or trying to mix things up for no reason, she was in it to win. With that being said, she also had her flaws (the only people I have ever heard her give her props are Shii during ASS and Vee who said she played the game with a mix of Amber and Tina in her post s4 chat), not to mention the glaring opinion of whether or not she should have even been cast instead of more memorable contestants; still she was one of the few that showed growth and actual game. Was she the best winner? No. But she is also the one winner who more than any other winner has the best shot at making f4 every season shes on. A good test/comparison is to throw a winner in a random season on a random tribe and see how far they could go. She has probably the least negatives against her than any other winner. |
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chapera rocks |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 12268 (03/27/07 6:02 PM) Registered User |
You're my favourite newbie ever.
 I agree about Amber ... she's definitely underrated. People, IMO, just hate on her because they see her as boring, or just use the excuse that she was the same as S2 Amber, when she really wasn't. |
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JaMalle |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 4855 (03/27/07 6:26 PM) Registered User |
Sorry newbie (and chapera) but I think I'm about to rip your post apart:
Quote: It wasn't editing, it's fact. Quote: I don't blame Amber really. Sure, she was perceived as just as undeserving as Jerri, but Tina was the one who caused the rift between Amber and Liz. This prevented the OBVIOUS coup against the main Ogakor alliance. Tina pursuaded Liz/Rodger into believing Amber didn't deserve it. They also resented her closeness to Jerri. what Amber should have done is made Liz/Rodger realize they were 4th and 5th. She didn't do this, and that WAS her fault. Quote: there's a way to backstabb, and tina did it masterfully without getting the moral backlash. Quote: please. Amber is AWESOME on TAR, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. liz on the view is awesome for sticking up for her beliefs. Being conservative doesn't make you evil. May not agree with her, but give her props to sticking up to those 3 washed up hags. Quote: She was there to honeymoon with Rob. lol Whatever your statement means, Amber was focused. I'll give her that. Quote: ShiiAnn is delusional but I still love her. Vee is also crazy to say she played like Amber. I guess anyone who plays UTR plays like Amber.... And no, she'd didn't deserve to be there in the first place. Not bitter about it, but it's fact. I think she was like a last resort, all of Colleen and Liz refused to come back. AND Vecepia was pregnant right? Amber showed no game. Fortunately for her, that was the best strategy on a season full of hate and stupidity. Stupid Stupid Stupid People. I'll say it again and again. When every other player is playing stupidly, the person who doesn't play at all will win. That was Lamber. Quote: I'd say worst. Quote: Hard to argue, but this doesn't really say anything about how well she can play the game. Could she actually ever win in a jury vote on a regular season? I doubt it. Nice argument though from a newbie. : } |
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RazorrzzEdge |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 6120 (03/27/07 6:43 PM) Registered user |
Quote:No, Tina simply shielded herself with Colby, who was considered even more devious because of how close he was to Jerri. You're absolutely, categorically wrong if you think Amber is the worst winner. |
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JaMalle |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 4855 (03/27/07 7:05 PM) Registered User |
Quote: Tina is the one that got Colby to backstabb his own F4 alliance with Amber/Jerri/Mitchell. She's the one that pushed for Jerri's early boot. She's the one that pushed for Amber's extra early boot. There was no way Tina could use Colby as a shield. lol He was everyone's shield. Thing is that there was no way he wasn't making F3. Colby never got the moral backlash with backstabbing. Amber still voted for him didn't she? Sure, Jerri didn't, but she was bitter emotinoally rather than strategically. Again, tina did some dirty things without ever getting caught by others (to this day). At least Jerri served her justice at All Stars. : } Quote: haha. puhlease. Amber did nothing. Any winner from ASS would be the worst winner. |
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Quiddity |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 6809 (03/27/07 7:06 PM) Registered User |
Quote: Yes, she has the best shot at making final 4 because no one will think she's a threat and will completely forget about her. No one will have any respect for her, as she doesn't deserve any, and they'll all take each other out, and she'll be the only one left. That doesn't make her a good, or even respectable winner. It makes her a pathetic winner who essentially won by default. She's the only winner in the history of the game to have only one jury vote cast for her :P |
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Pulau Tiga |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 5765 (03/27/07 7:07 PM) Registered user |
Quote:I've heard the arguments for this, and I just don't buy it. They both betrayed him, and while Shane has said he probably felt more betrayed by Cirie simply because he trusted her more, when it came down to a jury vote, Shane's vote would be up for grabs. Shane's world is his son; he clearly loves that kid, and that shows his strong paternal instincts. Cirie has kids of her own, a family to support, the maternal characteristics that Shane repeatedly say he admired in her in post-show interviews. Aras has no kids, no family, no real future. He's a bum, as Shane pointed out at the Final TC, without any true use for the money. The way I see it, Cirie had Shane's vote the second she brought personal lives into it, as I'm sure she would. They both stabbed him in the back, so Aras doesn't have a huge advantage there, but Cirie is much more likely to connect with Shane again on that parental level. We've seen so many connections in this game that were simply based on values that intertwined, core principles that people shared, personal lives that a player let influence their decision. It seems ridiculous to me to say that Shane would go up there, face down two people he was betrayed by, and then give his vote to the worthless yoga bum over the caring mother of two. Quote:He played Caryn on his own. It's not like Caryn just decided, "I like Tom. Let's let him win." Tom had to tell her what she wanted to hear, and he did just that. He made promises to her that kept her loyal. Quote:At Final 5? Yeah, thanks to Ian's poor tactical plays, and those two guys managed to keep themselves around anyway. At they hypothetical Gregg-still-in-the-game Final 5? Tom prevented that from happening. Quote:Because those were both huge mistakes for her. She was the third wheel in Jerri/Mitchell/Amber, possibly even the fourth wheel if Colby stayed with them. She had no shot at winning by staying with Jerri after the merge, and then she didn't even bother trying to break Tina's spell over Rodger/Elisabeth, as she admitted to in her post-show interviews. Amber didn't do a damn thing in Australia. Quote:Because Rodger/Elisabeth had to to stay in the game? Quote:Like JaMalle said, if she was focused on winning, she wouldn't have let herself be distracted by her attraction to Rob. She planned to go to the end with him from the very beginning, before he started blowing his social game completely. She knew he was abrasive, but it's ridiculous to think she knew he would enter the merge and piss off four people beyond redemption. She just wanted to go to the end with him, figuring she might have a chance because he could be a jerk, and knowing she could at least finish well otherwise. She didn't realize how well her plan would actually end up working out for her until the merge happened, and from there she made the obvious moves of approaching potential jurors (even then, not all of them that she should have approached). Quote:Like when she pissed off her strongest potential ally, Alicia, on Day 2? Yeah, she was lucky to be on a tribe with people like Tom, Alicia, Mariano, and Sue, who were bound to clash all over the place. Quote:And she almost never wins. Hell, if she approaches the wrong person in the beginning of the game, she goes before the merge as a liability. She was very lucky to make the merge on Australia anyway. Quote:That sounds like a good way to backstab to me, no? She picked off allies while still getting their votes (Jerri), and maintaining a squeaky clean moral image (necessary for a jury with Alicia, Rodger, Keith, and Elisabeth). Quote:You're also absolutely, categorically wrong if you think Amber is the best winner, or even top 3. |
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finishthemoff |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 15489 (03/27/07 7:09 PM) Registered user |
I'm going to say this...
Rodger WANT to recruit Amber to oust Keithy/Colby, but Elizabeth is so fixture on being next Colleen feel that she need to keep her sweetheart issue. In fact, there is a time that Colby threw a big fit against Keith, and Rodger asked Keith if he want to take that boy out. Thailand is one of the least understood season. It is understandable why we think Brian is overrated because we don't fully understood why he won. I do know one thing is thatTed made it clear that he will vote for Brian no matter what. Racism card is a curve ball. Brian actually don't like Penny and Ken due to their laziness, while Erin apparently like Clay for complimenting her ass(ets). Vee weighs her options very well. I hate to think that we hated her because of her race, her ability of using God on her side, or the fact that she came from despised tribe. She does very well in white-majority season! |
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El Syd 01 |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 4 (03/27/07 7:19 PM) Registered user |
Interesting points, JaMalle.
Quote: I wouldn't go as far to say anything they show us is fact. Survivor is about telling a story and to put it simply, there was no role for Amber in Australia. They had the sweetheart in Elisabeth and the bitch in Jerri. Amber was non-offensive, nice, and probably one of the least "big" personalities of Survivor period. It made perfect sense to show her solely her as Jerri's sidekick/lamb who takes the fall once Evil Jerri goes. Was she probably closest to Jerri? Most likely. But you can't forget that it was just Episode 6 where her and Tina were BFF braiding eachothers hair talking about college and Jerri herself said she felt like an outsider. Quote: Tina was amazing. She pushed SO hard for a "deserving" final group of people...ie people she snowed. Should Amber have tried to get Rodger/Lis on her side? Of course. But why should she have? Just the previous round the two of them voted for her...as far as she was concerned she was final four (thanks to her relationship with Colby). From there on out she would have to rely on immunity but she was second to Colby a few times (and even beat him at the F6 RC). Why in the world would they take Lis and Rodger over her? Why risk approaching R/L and getting kicked out when in her mind she was safe for at least another round. Shortsighted, but why risk it unless you need too. She didn't feel she had too. Most of the blame should be put on the group of two rather than the group of one. They had to have really been under Tina's spell to think Tina and Colby would risk a tie at f4 and stay with them. Quote: Yeah that came out totally wrong. What I was getting as was Edited Lis was nowhere near Real/View Lis. Which just goes to show the power of Editing. Quote: I don't even think Vee was asked, Jeff said as much. Amber was cast as once Lis declined because she is pretty and on the most watched season, all of which worked in her favor. As for everyone else playing stupidly...that may well be the case but ultimately there is going to be the case for everyone but the winner. That argument could be made for everyone who doesn't win...at some point they each made a decision that indirectly or directly led to their downfall. Quote: I think she definitely could win a jury vote that way. Heck, she could have won s2 that way....the entire point of the game is to get to the f2 by offending the least amount of people or sitting next to someone who stepped on more toes than you did. You don't just magically end up in the final four let alone the final two. You need that mix of luck, skill, likeability, athleticism etc. Some winners have more than others imo. |
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Quiddity |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Posts: 6809 (03/27/07 7:28 PM) Registered User |
Quote: Or, in Amber's case, all you need are your looks, enough to hook you up with a despised alpha male on day one and ride him all the way to the end. Some winners did it through great strategy. Some winners did it through crucial immunity wins. Some winners did it by turning the tables on those in charge. Some winners weren't the best at anything, but had a good mix of strategy, socialism and challenge performance. One winner did it by getting lucky and finding the immunity idol. And then... there's Amber, who won solely because her name wasn't Rob. Lex, Tom and Alicia were so absurdly mad at Rob and he did so absurdly bad in his jury speech that even Jenna Lewis could have won the game sitting next to him. Not saying Amber didn't deserve to beat Rob in the F2, but I think its very hard IMHO to come to the opinion that doing absolutely nothing and hiding behind someone hated while having no strategic ability, no challenge ability, and only enough social ability to get you slightly above one of the most despited players ever is a strategy anywhere on the level of the other 12 winners. Yes, that will win you the game if you have the luck to get to final 2 like Amber did. But its very hard to respect that kind of game. |
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