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fanofcoils |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Ethan was destined to win the F3 IC. He just looks like someone who could go the distance in one of the put your hand on the idol challenges. But then he got Sundanced.
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RavuRules |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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First off, I give all the winners complete credit for their victories. They are all great players
On instinct, I'd say Aras struck me as the luckiest winner. I think Amber and Chris are some of the most underrated winners (although not necessarily the best) |
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nordicsurvivor |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Still think Aras is underrated, here's why:
1. Voting of Bruce was the better solution for him. He was BobDawg's biggest ally at the moment, and he hoped to get him and Cirie with him to the merge at least. Voting for Bruce what not a mistake, the only mistake there could be that he didn't try to prevent the Bobby boot. 2. In the merge, the situation was clear for Aras: as long as Terry would win immunities, he'd have nothing to worry about . And what did Aras do? Lost against Terry every time! After seeing all the challenges, you can't possible say he gave 110% in every challenge, can you? 3. And finally, the main reason Aras survived: he made the alliance with Cirie! This was the situation: Aras thought Cirie would beat him, yet he also knew she was a good strategist. You should definately ally with a person like that: she's the one who'd probably burn the bridges behind her. Almost exactly similar situation to Tom-Ian, the only difference is that Tom managed to keep a goat around all the time, which makes Tom slightly better than Aras. It's unreasonable to say Aras is a bad player because Cirie saved her in the Courtney boot episode, or that he's a bad player because he only had luck with Terry running for immunities. HE DID IT ALL BY HIMSELF!!! As hard as I try, I can't see any vital mistakes in his game, and that makes him a good winner for me. |
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sunsawed |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Most Overrated: BRIAN.
When people call you Lord Brian nearly universally, that's a clue. Especially since he was one vote away from losing to a brain-dead hick. Most Underrated: VEE. When S4 happened the model players were Mike (Hero) and Hatch (Villain.) She played the Heroes and Villains AGAINST each other, always positioning herself as the Swing Vote. But her absolute MASTER play was at the F5, when she was obviously the one to go. Kathy had been in negotations with Sean and Paschal had that Cruise bond. VERY subtly, she drove a wedge between Paschal and Sean. "Sean, why don't you discuss your FEELINGS with Sean," which erupted into a full-flung battle, very covertly betraying her best ally, taking her off the chopping block. Then she had the Ace-in-the-Hole of keeping a meticulous diary of people EXPECTING a "Fallen Comrades" challenge, she could pull the surprise upset in. |
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veeisforvictory |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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hmm, sunsawed, I never thought about that maybe if they didn't have that fireside chat she would have been booted, I think people were beginning to like Sean more than her at that point...I also think she was the one who started up that chat when Hunter got booted off when Sarah and Sean "opened up" their feelings on Hunter...
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finishthemoff |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Vee's victory is the last fallen comrade, which I actually think is a good idea.
Brian is NOT overrated. Just because he "barely" beat the Hick didn't make him less of the winner if your not looking at big picture here. Penny and Ken, for example, came in the jury-mindset- on voting for Clay. They are both incredibly sore losers who didn't give two-cents that Brian didn't attempt to socialize with them (he was away for fishing most of the time while Clay didn't). While Erin isn't a sore loser, she is a friend of Ken and Penny, which made her biased. Brian will still beat Jan and Ted. I stand by it. |
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SenseiKreese |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote: That's Brian's fault, not Penny and Ken's. If Brian was a better player, he would have tried to bond with them. Do you think someone like Tina or Chris or Danni would have gone the whole game and just ignored two potential jurors? If there are jurors who hate your guts, that means you screwed up. And it just proves that Brian IS overrated because he didn't even care about them. Sore losers = caused by bad players |
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finishthemoff |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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When is the last time you saw Thailand?
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AwesumCrush00 |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Overrated: RICHARD HATCH!!
Underrated: Vecepia, Amber Still, the best winners shall be known as Chris, Sandra, and Jenna |
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SenseiKreese |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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<< When is the last time you saw Thailand? >>
Dude, I watch Thailand all the time. There isn't a Survivor season (at least prior to Exile Island) that I haven't watched at least 10 times. And the fact remains that if the jury doesn't want you to win, that's your fault as a player. There's no such thing as a sore loser. |
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Cuitlahuac Smith |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Overrated- Chris, Amber, Brian
Underrated- Danni, Vee, Tina, Jenna [to an extent |
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JaMalle |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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MOST Overrated:
****Brian. Come on. He was one "Clay answers Helen's question" away from losing.... Clay played a decent goat game, and when you almost lose to a goat, you suck. ***Tom. One of the suckiest winners. Only good move was manipulating Caryn into giving him the game at F7. Also, Ian wimping was the only other reason he won. He didn't dominate anything.... **Aras didn't do much. He piggy-backed Cirie's strategy. And he survived only because Terry won all the ICs. A goat (Danielle) accidently slipped into the F3, causing him to win no matter what (what a ridiculous F3 IC). Very very very lucky winner. *Jenna. Social game? I say bitter jury. Especially all those delusonal self-proclaimed strategist (Rob, Deena, Alex). Backstabbed loyal allies. Got lucky within this chaotic game. MOST Underated: ***Danni. I rank her as one of the best winners, because she knew how to manipulated the chain of command. Stephenie was the big mouth who called shots. Rafe controlled her decisions. And Danni controlled his. Now you tell me who really had control. She also controlled her entire tribe pre-merge. So except the first 4 boots post-merge, Danni dominated the game! Like Tina, she used "morals and ethics" to manipulate those around her. **Tina. First to use the "morals and ethics" route in order to manipulate those around her into doing these that would deserve the stamp of approval for horrible strategy (Liz, Rodger, Amber, Colby). This si truly the best strategy because you make others believe what they're doing is morally right, which may be the case, but it was only best for Tina. *Sandra. She rode a chaotic wave all the way to its end. She successfully become the "last in line to be picked off" from every single alliance she joined/created. I would like to say that, besides Amber, I respect all the winners, because just to win says alot and it usually doesn't just happen by accident. |
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RobVanStratus |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote: So Hatch, Tina, Vee, Amber, and Yul are all shitty players because they barely won by a vote? If you wanna talk about the vote, Hatch only won because Greg won Immunity at the F10. Had that not happened, Greg goes and Gretchen is a juror and votes Kelly to win. But Hatch is a good winner and I won't bring that up against him, because that is just the way the game played out. A 4-3 win is no worse than a 6-1 win. Brian and Clay both played good games. Brian secured his alliance and his 4 votes to win, while Clay tried to do the same thing but burned bridges with the person he should have used for the 4th vote, Jake. Brian didn't. |
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finishthemoff |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Clay is the most underestimated player in the history of Survivor. He was pick last solely because of his height and wasn't seen as a threat yet...
He did reasonably well in challenge. He defeated Shi Ann in number challenges. He saved himself against Ghandia He did made some moves to secure votes (he would still get votes from Penny and Ken over Ted, Jan, and even Helen). He is responsible for getting Robb's disqualify. His height alone made Robb choke him! (Rob is exactly a foot taller than Clay) In this, Clay actually gave his tribe an important leverage! He defeated Ken in the first individual immunity chalenge. He secured important alliance with Brian in spite of Jan, Helen, and to some degree, Ted's annoyance. He isn't a big goat like many Sucks think he is. He is not Katie, Becky, Danielle, Matt, ColonJ, Twila, or any of those players. Just because you are a hick didn't mean that you are incapable of playing the game. |
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chapera rocks |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote: <3 CS, but you can't really be overrated if you're not really considered a good winner in the first place. Personally though, I think Amber is highly underrated (just as Vee is, and just as Ethan/Aras are overrated). I think a lot of people think she sucked at the game because she did in S2 or because of editing or because they don't like her. :/ |
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Pulau Tiga |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote:And guess who has no shot of winning in that Final 4? Becky. The fact of the matter is that she had no end game whatsoever. She wanted to make it to the end with a group of people, and then just let things play themselves out from there. She completely failed to win any respect from the people she booted, the men she played with, or any of the jurors after the merge. How she ever thought she was going to beat Yul in a jury vote is beyond me. Quote:And that was Becky's problem. She didn't earn herself any respect for any of her strategic play. She became friends with some of the women, and that was the extent of her jury manipulation. She never tried to impress Raro with her play, she never tried to win jury votes from people like Nate, Candice, Parvati, and Adam, and she completely allowed Yul to take all the credit for everything the Aitu 4 accomplished. Quote:Well, you can't hold this against him, really. He made an alliance early on with Lex and Tom, and one can say that it was a smart move to choose two men who were loyal and honest enough that Ethan would be in a good end game position with them. What you can hold against him is the fact that he never tried to form any bonds with Kim J. until Day 38, he potentially could have lost to Tom in a jury vote (it wouldn't actually happen, but that's not really because of things Ethan did, but rather things Tom did/didn't do), and he didn't really form strong jury connections with Samburu members (beyond, "Look at me, I'm a nice guy."). Ethan had a good shot of never making his end game, and even there, he didn't actually set himself up for it that well, just riding the fact that he was a likable guy who wasn't quite as abrasive or over the top as Lex and Tom. Quote:Except that after those four Aces had been used, Yul wasn't done playing poker. He still had a game to win, and it's not like he didn't do things to pull of that win. He was hindered by Ozzy's challenge domination, he was hindered by the fact that the cast was so young, he was hindered by the fact that people could hold his HII against him. He still won, and he didn't just luck into that. He earned respect from the jurors he was able to, despite the twist that meant he was going up against his biggest threat and would not have his most solid jury vote. He took credit for all of the strategy of the alliance, making sure all Ozzy would have going for him was challenge wins. He used the HII as a bartering tool throughout the game, trying to get some use out of it instead of holding it and giving him a free ride that people might be bitter about. Thanks to the fact that the jury was so damn immature, the fact that Ozzy was closer to the jury's age range, and the fact that the larger jury put Brad, Rebecca, and Jenny into the jury (three people who had been beat by Ozzy repeatedly in challenge, but who had never truly played with Yul strategically, and therefore couldn't have as much respect for his way of playing the game), Yul was faced with a very difficult jury vote no matter what. But he handled it with flying colors, staying close to the women in his alliance, making deals for jury votes, not alienating people like Jonathan (something Ozzy didn't figure out), etc. I'm well aware that the HII gave Yul a huge game advantage. Maybe had there been no EI, things would have been different for him (you can't just remove the HII from the game and leave it at that, because that means EI decisions would have been different, Yul would have played differently, tactics would have shifted, etc.). But the fact is he did have that HII, and he used it beautifully. And from there, he played the rest of the game perfectly as well. He's not as solid a winner as someone like Tina or Brian by any means, but he certainly played a wonderful game, and you can't honestly say someone like Aras had a better grasp on Survivor than Yul. Quote:Agreed. Of course you're let anyone besides you be booted; that's just playing the game. It's when you actually bother to do something about your position that involves more than simply avoiding the next boot that you're using strategy. Making sure you're not the next one gone is the most basic play one can utilize, and Sandra would not have even been successful with it had others not made numerous mistakes and people not acted irrationally at times. Quote:Um, if Aras had actually beat Terry in a challenge, he'd have been able to force out the HII, and no longer had to worry about being the one booted if Terry ever lost immunity. Aras couldn't do anything about the rest of the tribe losing to Terry, and Aras actually wanted to beat Terry if he was going to be less at risk, so Aras completely lucked out with the way challenges went down after the merge. Quote:Except Cirie had a great social game. You don't plan to go to the end with a great strategist, tactical player, and social manipulator. That's just suicide. Quote:He won immunity for Terry all by himself? He put himself in the position to be beat by Cirie all by himself? Quote:Man, I've got to watch Thailand again, because from what I remember, Brian had reasons to feel confident he would get the four jury votes he got. But I can't really argue it when I haven't seen the season since it originally aired (and even then, not all of it). Quote:Yeah, and Jenna was completely helped by the mentality of that whole cast, too. I mean, the older women might have caused problems for her, but they were booted pre-merge, and while Jenna had a hand in that, I don't think it was because she was afraid of not having their jury vote later on down the road. If she was actually concerned with that, she would have done more to accomodate them. Quote:Had Sandra gone with her original alliance, she might have won, but it would have been risky. And more importantly, she didn't do a damn thing to make sure her alliance stayed in control. She was oblivious to the playing going on around her, and once Ruper went, the game was controlled by everyone besides her and Christa. She wasn't a threat, but she was in a post-merge situation where people actually were willing to backstab and betray as necessary to pick off the threats (and those situations don't come up too often). Put her in with some different players, and she clashes into an early boot. Hell, put her into a merge with some different players, and she plays the same oblivious game that ends up with her being picked off along with the rest of her alliance. Sandra lucked into Jon/Burton/Lill taking control, something that wouldn't have happened without the Outcast twist, and something Sandra was not planning to let happen (or even wanting to let happen; she wanted to eliminate that threesome). She was lucky Darrah started winning immunities, she was lucky Lill took her to the end (because she certainly didn't do anything to get on Lill's good side during the game), and she was lucky that the whole cast was so game savvy and manipulative that her terrible social game didn't backfire on her. Sandra didn't get herself into the Final 2; everyone else did. |
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nordicsurvivor |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote: True, but then again look at the players Terry was playing against? If Aras wouldn't win Terry, no-one would. So I think Aras could've safely assume that either him or Terry would win immunity every time, there's no luck. Quote: If Cirie was so good, then how come Aras would've won her in the end?!? Austin, Sally, Courtney, Terry. For sure. Maybe Danielle and Shane too. I can definately see your arguments' point, but I just have to disagree with them: there was no such situation where Aras actually lucked out. |
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Pulau Tiga |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote:That's how it ultimately played out, yes. But for Aras to have to bank on that shows how weak of a game he had. You can't rely on winning immunity challenges, and you sure as hell can't rely on another person winning immunity challenges. Aras not only needed to control the IC's for the entire post-merge game (which is a sign of a poor winner, as no one else had to rely on immunity as much as that), Aras needed someone else to control IC's for the entire post-merge game. There's a reason someone like Jenna or Tom gets flak for the times that they had to win immunity or else they probably would have been booted. Aras deserves that flak to an outrageous degree, because he needed those immunities far more often, and worst of all, he needed someone else to win those immunities, and one of the things you have no control of in this game is someone else's performance in challenges. Quote:Like someone else pointed out, Aras was convinced Cirie would beat him, and that means he wasn't ultimately playing for the win (and that means he sucks). The jury votes are irrelevent (and completely debatable, by the way; I think Cirie would have gotten votes from Sally, Danielle, Courtney, and Shane, whose votes you give to Aras). What matters is that as far as Aras knew, Cirie would beat him. You don't go to the end with someone you think will beat you. Hell, you don't go to the end with someone you're not sure you can beat, especially if that someone is a sweet, lovable, older woman with a family to support and an underdog story arch who never had to rely on challenges like you did. |
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seltzer3 |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
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Sally would not have voted for Aras, I remember her saying in one of the insiders how she didn't think Aras/Danielle didn't deserve to win. Too bad for her it came down to the two of them.
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Pulau Tiga |
Re: Most Overrated/Underrated Winner | ||
Quote:Yeah, I accidentally left her name off my list, but I also recall the interview where she said her vote would have gone to Terry or Cirie over Aras or Danielle. |
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