S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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BlakeB717		#2301	[-]
Posts: 2037 (11/05/09 1:12 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Also, I'm confused at where the P and the N are both coming from. Some are saying she was P because she's playing the game. Others are saying she's N because she was a tool. Thus, she's M... This argument confuses me because she can't be both. She's either a tool or a praised gameplayer. Which is it?
chapera rocks		#2302	[-]
Posts: 11894 (11/05/09 7:19 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Not exactly my thoughts. I think she's N because she was shown to be lazy. She's P because her socializing would end up helping the entire tribe. M basically because her actions left the audience conflicted on whether or not she did the right thing. She's automatically N for being lazy, but unlike other lazy edits, she was shown as somewhat justified.
Warrior		#2303	[-]
Posts: 2970 (11/05/09 7:50 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite
Shorvivor		#2304	[-]
Posts: 185 (11/05/09 8:24 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Why is Natalie still 3rd on the contenders list? It looks like Dave or Erik could be more likely than her.
unduli clone		#2305	[-]
Posts: 7684 (11/05/09 8:29 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Again, I thought Natalie was utilized by the editors as a pawn to furnish all of Liz, Russell, and Laura's episodic story. Because it was not about her, she got an UTR instead of a MOR, but because she was presented in an ambivalent light - we weren't told whether to agree with Liz that she was being lazy or see that she was playing the game - she gets an M. I don't feel very strongly about it, and it doesn't change the fact that she has a pathetic edit with no chance at winning. Her being third on the contenders' list is a joke anyway - hello, she had ONE vote from the majority.
fat little fingers		#2306	[-]
Posts: 6319 (11/05/09 11:06 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Okay, I'll boil my post down: 1) Russel is not talking about Laura (in the confessional after the fire pit scene). He is explaining why he wants to keep Natalie and boot Liz. 2) gr, the exact quote is, "...If we merge, we need somebody on the inside and Natalie's doing a good job talkin' to Laura around camp, so I have to keep Natalie for my little toy -ya know- she has to be there for me, so I can manipulate her little mind and do what I want her to do,.." Russel is telling us that he will keep Natalie, because he can manipulate her to do his bidding. She's a "toy" with a "little mind". This is just the continuation of the "stupid girls" story. Russel has not suddenly become Natalie's ally or true partner. He loathes these "worthless" people and will use them and then throw them, away as "trash". 3) Russle's thinking (based strictly on this one confessional): Natalie - Good ...because she is a pea-brain who is his easily manipulated toy. Liz - Bad ...because she's not "street smart" and, "has a mouth on her and I don't think she knows when to shut up" (It is also implied that she's bad because she's not a good toy or puppet.) re: Why Natalie is Mixed and not Negative 1) She makes the right reply to Jeff at TC that the tribe is always thinking that they can win the next challenge, because it's that or go home. 2) I personally gave her a Neutral, because her tone situations were so vague. But,... 3) A Mixed tone makes sense more than a Negative. Natalie's ongoing story is Mixed until it concludes: Is she Positive because she defeats or outlasts Russel as she plans? or Is she Negative, because Russel eventually proves his point by using and then throwing her away like trash?
AndreSurvivor		#2307	[-]
Posts: 621 (11/05/09 11:57 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Shorvivor wrote: Why is Natalie still 3rd on the contenders list? It looks like Dave or Erik could be more likely than her. She is still on because someone's got to be third and Dave/Erik suck as much or more than Natalie.
cindidindi76		#2308	[-]
Posts: 20388 (11/05/09 1:03 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Not to mention Dave and Erik are on the tribe that doesn't appear to be holding the winner.
fat little fingers		#2309	[-]
Posts: 6320 (11/05/09 3:02 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Is this make or break night for Mick?
BlakeB717		#2310	[-]
Posts: 2038 (11/05/09 3:03 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	2) I personally gave her a Neutral, because her tone situations were so vague. But,... 3) A Mixed tone makes sense more than a Negative. flf, I'm still confused why you chose Mixed over Neutral. Negative wasn't an option in the close-call: it was MIXED or NEUTRAL. You again make better cases for Neutral, then go with Mixed. Maybe you were confused and though the close-call was between Negative instead of Neutral and got your Ns mixed up? So confused!!
MasterDarkNinja		#2311	[-]
Posts: 2859 (11/05/09 4:16 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: Is this make or break night for Mick? I think so, if Mick just gets another bland MOR or UTR episode, then that'll be a red flag. I think Mick should also be shown playing more of a role in deciding the vote/getting the votes then he was on Foa Foa, even with Russel to compete with for airtime, though obviously Russell will get more strategy airtime then anyone else in the merge episode. flf, I'm still confused why you chose Mixed over Neutral. Negative wasn't an option in the close-call: it was MIXED or NEUTRAL. You again make better cases for Neutral, then go with Mixed. Maybe you were confused and though the close-call was between Negative instead of Neutral and got your Ns mixed up? I think at times like this it's better to go with mixed then static neutral. Since obviously the person registered some kind of a tone that episode, but it was kind of weak probably based on the votes and it being a close call, and it obviously wasn't static neutral.
Griffin		#2312	[-]
Posts: 1 (11/05/09 4:30 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hi; I've been lurking here for quite a few seasons and wanted to say a few things. I really don't think Mick is winning this and I feel like you guys are making the exact same mistake that you've made before. First of all, it seems like so many of the people picking Mick are picking him just because of process of elimination, which is exactly how Marcus and especially Kenny wound up being picked. It's how Stephenie was picked in Guatemala. None of those people ended up winning, and by now being forced to pick by process of elimination should be regarded as the tell-tale sign of an unorthodox (aka non-Yul-esque) winner. According to that, there's no way Mick should win. In addition, people who make the finals have moments related to the Final Tribal Council. Who has made references to the FTC so far? Natalie (she said she could beat Russell to due having good social skills), Russell (he said he could claim to the jury that Natalie rode coattails) and Shambo (said she wanted Erik and John's votes after giving them the clues to the HII). That says that those are the final three. Mick is not in the equation. And let's look at the first few confessionals. Monica gives the first subtitled confessional and specifically says that being a leader is like a "death wish". Five seconds later, Mick says he wants to be a leader - in other words, he has a death wish. If they were shown in the other order (Mick and then Monica), we could just say that they want to paint Monica as a follower and not a leader (which would make sense), but they didn't. FIRST we found out that being a leader is bad, THEN we found out that Mick wants to be a leader. Jeff making a remark about how "it's not the necklace" says bad things about leaders too. Next - and this is why I wrote him off to begin with - we never found out why he voted for Ashley instead of Marisa. When Rich voted for Stacey in Borneo Ep 1, we saw his voting confessional. When Vee voted for Sarah instead of Peter, she had the snarky confessional about how "Sarah's got a nice body; she paid a lot for it". We found out exactly why Aras wanted Bruce gone over Bobby through stuff like the rock garden argument. Mick never even mentioned Ashley (or Marisa, for that matter) in the first couple of episodes. Maybe they just didn't want to lump him in with Betsy, but it seems so awkward that they didn't show it. The fact that he was shown not being able to make fire in episode 3 doesn't help, either. That screams F4 tiebreak loser to me. (similar to Matty being shown sucking in Gabon's first individual IC). For me, the main question is: what season is Samoa parallel to? It the answer is All-Stars, then the reason why Natalie has gotten so much unnecessary gameplay editing is because she wins over Russell in the end. (She and Amber have very similar edits too, right down to the INV in Ep 2) If the answer is China, then the reason why Natalie's been getting this is just to create doubt for Russell's otherwise-obvious win. Or maybe I'm just in denial because I don't want such a boring robot to win. But seriously, I don't get why everyone's saying Mick. I really think it's between Natalie and Russell, and that Natalie has a slight edge at this point.
fat little fingers		#2313	[-]
Posts: 6321 (11/05/09 5:20 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	O-okay... my screw-up. It never pays to cut corners. I looked at Warrior's CC chart and assumed my choices were between N and Mixed. Phoenix: Tone Natalie White NN (0%), N (0%), neutral (50.0%) mixed (42.9%), P (7.1%), PP (0%)(note: 6 out of 13 neutral votes were for dynamic) As I said, my personal choice was straight Neutral. The tone scenes are just too vague and open to interpretation to rate. Natalie - MOR (neutral) There, is that flip-floppy enough for ya?! p.s.: Thanks, Blake, for hangin' my ass out there like that. :)P
astroline		#2314	[-]
Posts: 2717 (11/05/09 5:28 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Griffin, awesome post. Lots of constructive and useful criticism and I think a lot of it is completely correct. I'm holding out hope for Natalie, but Edgically, she's eliminated. However, Edgic doesn't always work 100% of the time. The editors don't follow Edgic, we do. Natalie's lack of confessionals in the first 3 episodes and her INV could have been deliberately a choice by the editors to hide her from all the distractions and big storylines in those early episodes. However, I can't put her on my Edgic winner's list. Logically it's very easy to see how she could win, but if she wins, it'll be from outside an Edgic standpoint and we'll make some alterations to the guidelines. I agree about Mick. The only thing keeping me from eliminating him, as stupid as it is, are the Pirate Master similarities. Mick is Ben, Natalie is Christa, Russell H. is Jay. Those 3 are all so similiar in edit, looks, personality, it's insane. However, if Mick gets another MOR or UTR in this episode, I'm eliminating him. We've established that the merge episode is huge for winners now, even for Bob it was. So if Mick doesn't get a CP or something, he's out. He's just the friendly young "hot" doctor. And you're right, we've heard NO endgame comments from him, at all. Natalie & Russell put forth a strategy and both are seen to be sticking to this EVERY episode. We see the progress of their games and how they make it to the end, what arguments they can make to vote for them, etc. What the hell would Mick say? Nothing that we know of as yet, so if we don't have anything after tonight as well, he's out. Not gonna fall for another Marcus/Matty/Brendan again. For the record, my #1 pick for winning is Russell H., Mick at #2, and everyone else out. Natalie was my #4 for only 2 weeks and that's it.
MasterDarkNinja		#2315	[-]
Posts: 2860 (11/05/09 5:50 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Griffin, I think you have a lot of good points here, I'll discuss them piece by piece. Griffin wrote: Hi; I've been lurking here for quite a few seasons and wanted to say a few things. I really don't think Mick is winning this and I feel like you guys are making the exact same mistake that you've made before. First of all, it seems like so many of the people picking Mick are picking him just because of process of elimination, which is exactly how Marcus and especially Kenny wound up being picked. It's how Stephenie was picked in Guatemala. None of those people ended up winning, and by now being forced to pick by process of elimination should be regarded as the tell-tale sign of an unorthodox (aka non-Yul-esque) winner. According to that, there's no way Mick should win. I haven't been hanging out in edgic until the last episode aired, but I'll agree with you that there seems to be a bit TOO much 'well it can't be anyone else since they're all eliminated' and too much Mick support, it's very rare for someone to hit the 90%+ mark. When I see support that high I tend to get nervous and think we're missing something myself. I made the same mistake with casual edgicing with Kenny, with Stephenie I think part of that was because no one fit the edgic guidelines after Gary left, we knew that Steph was too visible, but we also 'knew' that Danni was too UTR/too much of a nobody. And some people also jumped onto Rafe after that because of him being the next 'best fit' left in a group of people who should have been eliminated. I'd like to think today that I could have gotten Danni with what I've learned since then about how tribal edits matter in ways other then the 'complex tribe' rule, but I just don't know. Griffin wrote: In addition, people who make the finals have moments related to the Final Tribal Council. Who has made references to the FTC so far? Natalie (she said she could beat Russell to due having good social skills), Russell (he said he could claim to the jury that Natalie rode coattails) and Shambo (said she wanted Erik and John's votes after giving them the clues to the HII). That says that those are the final three. Mick is not in the equation. I have to disagree with you here. Just because someone has lots of final tribal council connections doesn't mean they face the jury, there's plenty of people who have gone home before then that had those connections. And I can think of quite a few people that I didn't think had much of any final tribal council connections who made it there anyway. Griffin wrote: And let's look at the first few confessionals. Monica gives the first subtitled confessional and specifically says that being a leader is like a "death wish". Five seconds later, Mick says he wants to be a leader - in other words, he has a death wish. If they were shown in the other order (Mick and then Monica), we could just say that they want to paint Monica as a follower and not a leader (which would make sense), but they didn't. FIRST we found out that being a leader is bad, THEN we found out that Mick wants to be a leader. Jeff making a remark about how "it's not the necklace" says bad things about leaders too. The fact that he was shown not being able to make fire in episode 3 doesn't help, either. That screams F4 tiebreak loser to me. (similar to Matty being shown sucking in Gabon's first individual IC) Interesting interpretation of that, though the editing has still avoided really faulting Mick and showing anyone say "Mick is a bad leader", which is noteworthy considering his tribe's losing streak. The fire scene is a bit more concerning to me though, surely they could have shown someone else trying to make the fire with Ben's instructions? Even with Ben saying to the girls he didn't even want them to try, one of the other guys should have been trying to make a fire to. They could have manipulated it to look like someone else was trying to make the fire while Ben said the same thing. Unless maybe they intend to show him learning how to make a fire later on in the season... Griffin wrote: Next - and this is why I wrote him off to begin with - we never found out why he voted for Ashley instead of Marisa. When Rich voted for Stacey in Borneo Ep 1, we saw his voting confessional. When Vee voted for Sarah instead of Peter, she had the snarky confessional about how "Sarah's got a nice body; she paid a lot for it". We found out exactly why Aras wanted Bruce gone over Bobby through stuff like the rock garden argument. Mick never even mentioned Ashley (or Marisa, for that matter) in the first couple of episodes. Maybe they just didn't want to lump him in with Betsy, but it seems so awkward that they didn't show it. Hmm, I didn't even know he did, but just checked and you're right. Can anyone think of a past winner who's vote for someone that didn't go home wasn't explained? They could have still explained Mick's vote without making him look too much like he was going against Russel or that he was a part of Russel's opposition, like show a confessional of him saying "I'm voting for Ashley because she's weak". Griffin wrote: For me, the main question is: what season is Samoa parallel to? It the answer is All-Stars, then the reason why Natalie has gotten so much unnecessary gameplay editing is because she wins over Russell in the end. (She and Amber have very similar edits too, right down to the INV in Ep 2) If the answer is China, then the reason why Natalie's been getting this is just to create doubt for Russell's otherwise-obvious win. Or maybe I'm just in denial because I don't want such a boring robot to win. But seriously, I don't get why everyone's saying Mick. I really think it's between Natalie and Russell, and that Natalie has a slight edge at this point. I barely remember anything in the first half of all stars, but I'm pretty sure that Amber wasn't shown as one dimensional as Natalie. My problem with Natalie is that she never contradicts Russel as he gloats about her being his little puppet, it's just been going on for too long. Heck, we didn't even get a big Natalie episode 'sort of' explaining her strategy until episode 4, after Russel had been calling her his zombie for the previous 3 episodes.
SmashItWithAHamma		#2316	[-]
Posts: 60 (11/05/09 6:44 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Okay, random observation, but I've been rewatching Borneo recently, and that Edgic chart on the first page is seriously 0_o. How in the hell were Sue and Kelly both INV1 during Episode 2 when both of them had a confessional? The only true INV1 should have been Dirk, and I definitely think Ramona should have gotten a 5 visibility considering she had like 17 confessionals. Seriously, she was all over the place.
Warrior		#2317	[-]
Posts: 2971 (11/05/09 6:49 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: O-okay... my screw-up. It never pays to cut corners. I looked at Warrior's CC chart and assumed my choices were between N and Mixed. Phoenix: Tone Natalie White NN (0%), N (0%), neutral (50.0%) mixed (42.9%), P (7.1%), PP (0%)(note: 6 out of 13 neutral votes were for dynamic) As I said, my personal choice was straight Neutral. The tone scenes are just too vague and open to interpretation to rate. Natalie - MOR (neutral) There, is that flip-floppy enough for ya?! p.s.: Thanks, Blake, for hangin' my ass out there like that. :)P Got it...it will show up on next weeks chart. (Natalie UTR2) Wow...it wasn't me that screwed up this week!
Griffin		#2318	[-]
Posts: 2 (11/05/09 6:51 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I have to disagree with you here. Just because someone has lots of final tribal council connections doesn't mean they face the jury, there's plenty of people who have gone home before then that had those connections. And I can think of quite a few people that I didn't think had much of any final tribal council connections who made it there anyway. Yeah, that's true, but I'm not really sure why they would put in the two confessionals from Russell and Natalie, which clearly opposed each other, unless we were eventually going to see which won out in the end. And Shambo's random "I better get your votes, and if not, bad on you" line just seemed like foreshadowing to me. I could definitely be wrong, though. Interesting interpretation of that, though the editing has still avoided really faulting Mick and showing anyone say "Mick is a bad leader", which is noteworthy considering his tribe's losing streak. Well, I don't think they want to edit him negatively, so they wouldn't put in too much about being the bad leader. My point was more that one of the very first confessionals (and THE very first, if you don't count the non-subtitled ones) was clearly saying that being a leader (no matter what type of leader) is a bad thing, and that he then said that he felt he could be the leader. I barely remember anything in the first half of all stars, but I'm pretty sure that Amber wasn't shown as one dimensional as Natalie. My problem with Natalie is that she never contradicts Russel as he gloats about her being his little puppet, it's just been going on for too long. Heck, we didn't even get a big Natalie episode 'sort of' explaining her strategy until episode 4, after Russel had been calling her his zombie for the previous 3 episodes. Yeah, if it wasn't for this I'd be much more sure that Natalie was going to win. Then again, this is still pre-merge here, and UTR winners are generally fairly one-dimensional in the pre-merge. Bob never got anything that didn't scream "lovable older guy" until after Marcus was gone. And then there's just the fact that Russell had that "I want to prove how easy it is to win this game" line in Ep 1, which really scares me because the producers can't want people to think that Survivor is easy. I think what it'll come down to is how Natalie's edit becomes now that the merge is here. I think tonight's episode is going to be huge.
fat little fingers		#2319	[-]
Posts: 6322 (11/05/09 7:09 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Wow...it wasn't me that screwed up this week! Always glad to carry a little of the load, Warrior.
NickF227		#2320	[-]
Posts: 12460 (11/05/09 7:19 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OMG LAURA IS SO SMART. <3 NATALIE LIKES CRACK. <3 MICK HAS APPEARED LIKE ONCE IN THE 20 MINUTES. <3

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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