S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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Oowatanite		#1781	[-]
Posts: 9010 (10/20/09 10:03 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	^ ^ ^ ^ Monicatard !!
scepticA		#1782	[-]
Posts: 1722 (10/20/09 10:18 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: Monica's IC speech-ette: "It's a game. I wouldn't take it personally. It's raining and everyone's trying to stay warm." Lets parse that statement. It sounded not exactly self-contradictory, but more like she started saying one thing, realized it sounded mean, and then changed horses in the middle of a soliloquoy: "It's a game." Yeah, so that means don't welcome her? If it is a game, then their shunning her has game significance. This statement was basically, "She is not part of our tribe on a game level." Strategically an unwise statement because it reinforces Shambo's sense of alienation. If they're really blame a game of deception they'd be nice. Instead, they immersed themselves in the "she lost the chicken so we're punishing her" rationalization. "I wouldn't take it personally." The universal non-apology for what most people would consider rude, insensitive, or cruel behavior. You say that when it is not unreasonable to take something personally. You don't say that after giving someone a piece of chocolate cake, or maybe a bit of protein the Galus saved for her. "We know you missed the BBQ yesterday, so here's part of a steack. I wouldn't take it personally." Now, that makes zero sense. "Yeah, we aren't welcoming you, have nothing for you, aren't acknowleging you." That's when you say to not take it personally. Which, of course, Shambo did. "It's raining and everyone's trying to stay warm." The shunning quality of the first two sentences seemed to dawn on Monica so she tried to modify them with this last statement that is a complete non sequitor to what preceded it. If she just said this it would have seemed non-descript. Saying "hello" or "how ya doin'" doesn't exactly reduce the number of K-Cals you have available to stay warm. Some people saw this Monica statement as neutral. I saw it as a feeble and failed effort to rationalize the tribe's crappy behavior towards Shambo. Shambo is probably no great shakes to live with, and is likely annoying as hell, but that's not how she's edited. We can discuss if Galu's behavior toward Shambo is justified or not, but it is edited as unkind (and also edited as bad strategy - when a merge comes Shambo has made it clear she will jump.) Personally, I don't blame Monica's attitude. Shambo voted to boot her, after all. However, the editors are making it clear that the tribe is driving Shambo away.
cyclehausen		#1783	[-]
Posts: 4569 (10/20/09 10:45 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	There seemed to be "transferrance" in her story. Ashley has been a key female from a story perspective on Foa Foa (really the only one since the cop left), and in her boot episode, we are essentially introduced to Natalie as Ashley's BFF. We are subtly instructed to equate them (note that in almost every scene throughout the episode in which Natalie appears, she is side-by-side with Ashley), and then once Ashley is gone, we can dedicate the attention we were giving her to Natalie. Some people just suck at giveing confessionals (not everyone is skilled at the "re-phrase the question as if it were my own random thought as I answer it" mandate of confessionals), so maybe that's why Natalie has been pushed to the background. I don't think she's winning by any means, but it's something that crossed my radar that I thought was interesting.
Oowatanite		#1784	[-]
Posts: 9012 (10/20/09 11:04 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: Personally, I don't blame Monica's attitude. Shambo voted to boot her, after all. However, the editors are ~~making it clear~~ manufacturing a storyline that the tribe is driving Shambo away. Fixed. And agreed. You know, I just wish the editors would build story arcs using only actual events in the actual order they occurred, rather than twisting the edit and the order of scenes and confessionals, just to favour the producer "faves".
wallduck		#1785	[-]
Posts: 559 (10/20/09 11:56 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Monica's defensiveness was accentuated by the fact that it was Probst who called her out. Probst's role in the scene heightened Monica's reaction, and it also heightens the viewer's reaction to Monica.
cindidindi76		#1786	[-]
Posts: 20167 (10/20/09 12:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: fat little fingers wrote: Monica's IC speech-ette: "It's a game. I wouldn't take it personally. It's raining and everyone's trying to stay warm." Lets parse that statement. It sounded not exactly self-contradictory, but more like she started saying one thing, realized it sounded mean, and then changed horses in the middle of a soliloquoy: "It's a game." Yeah, so that means don't welcome her? If it is a game, then their shunning her has game significance. This statement was basically, "She is not part of our tribe on a game level." Strategically an unwise statement because it reinforces Shambo's sense of alienation. If they're really blame a game of deception they'd be nice. Instead, they immersed themselves in the "she lost the chicken so we're punishing her" rationalization. "I wouldn't take it personally." The universal non-apology for what most people would consider rude, insensitive, or cruel behavior. You say that when it is not unreasonable to take something personally. You don't say that after giving someone a piece of chocolate cake, or maybe a bit of protein the Galus saved for her. "We know you missed the BBQ yesterday, so here's part of a steack. I wouldn't take it personally." Now, that makes zero sense. "Yeah, we aren't welcoming you, have nothing for you, aren't acknowleging you." That's when you say to not take it personally. Which, of course, Shambo did. "It's raining and everyone's trying to stay warm." The shunning quality of the first two sentences seemed to dawn on Monica so she tried to modify them with this last statement that is a complete non sequitor to what preceded it. If she just said this it would have seemed non-descript. Saying "hello" or "how ya doin'" doesn't exactly reduce the number of K-Cals you have available to stay warm. Some people saw this Monica statement as neutral. I saw it as a feeble and failed effort to rationalize the tribe's crappy behavior towards Shambo. Shambo is probably no great shakes to live with, and is likely annoying as hell, but that's not how she's edited. We can discuss if Galu's behavior toward Shambo is justified or not, but it is edited as unkind (and also edited as bad strategy - when a merge comes Shambo has made it clear she will jump.) Personally, I don't blame Monica's attitude. Shambo voted to boot her, after all. However, the editors are making it clear that the tribe is driving Shambo away. I agree with almost all of that. I don't personally think Monica did anything all that bad, but since Shambo's whole edit pretty much revolves around "Poor Shambo being shunned by her mean tribe of poopyheads", it seems to me that we're supposed to think Monica was bieng mean, and therefore N. Oo, I wish the editors would do that too, but then the viewers would have to actually gasp think for themselves!!!! And we can't have that.
fat little fingers		#1787	[-]
Posts: 6281 (10/20/09 1:01 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oo, I wish the editors would do that too, but then the viewers would have to actually gasp think for themselves!!!! And we can't have that. They're always going to, well, edit the footage to create a story. But, it'd be nice if they'd learn that when they actually give everyone some story it makes the show a hell of a lot more engaging. My favorite format has been the four tribes opening. Both Exile Island and Cook Islands, I felt I actually knew the characters by the end of Ep1, (which is a good trick in one hour).
BlakeB717		#1788	[-]
Posts: 1948 (10/20/09 1:48 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Personally, I don't care about tone that much. After Bob and JT, tone doesn't seem like much of an indictator for a winner (unless it's constant tone, or extreme tone, which no winner seems to get). I do, however, (I admit) enjoy "fighting" for tone, especially when it upsets fans who have (understandable) bias. The one thing that I saw was that Shambo was a P character, and Russell S was the main force against her. He was the one excluding her, and as a result, the editors showed that he was the bully to Shambo. But Monica, although much less visible, seemed to get comments that focused on her excluding Shambo simply for voting against her. Pretty understandable, and neutral, but the editors the proceeded to Monica getting a rather cold comment against Shambo, and seemed to be the less visible bully. A weak N, but based on editing intent, I saw it as a secondary associative bully N for Monica. I completely agree with her actions, but from an editting standpoint, I saw it otherwise. That's, of course, just me.
panurge46		#1789	[-]
Posts: 1502 (10/20/09 4:46 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I rarely care about tone but here, I think it's part of the story. It's not only what Monica said that shows the intent, it's that she contradicted Jeff. The host noted Galu's bad reception of Shambo. A Neutral response would have been something like: "We're sorry, it's just that we're freezing". Letting us hear that Monica thought Jeff's observation didn't matter, that it meant nothing personal, showed Monica's bitchy side. ETA: Sorry wallduck, I hadn't read your post. We saw it the same way.
getting real		#1790	[-]
Posts: 1832 (10/20/09 5:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Some people just suck at giveing confessionals (not everyone is skilled at the "re-phrase the question as if it were my own random thought as I answer it" mandate of confessionals), so maybe that's why Natalie has been pushed to the background. Her only INV episode was the second, when Betsy left. I suspect that, if the editors really intended for her to be the standard-bearer for the slighted blondes and for Betsy's 'woman's intuition', they had to avoid showing her being involved in Betsy's boot. And, yes, re. Monica, the manufactured opposition to Probst is the key. After all, all she said was that a game incorporates different behaviours to real-life situations. As Sceptic said, she then back-tracked when she realized she'd over-stepped the mark. Probst's intrusion, however, is a clear indication about the intent of the scene.
fat little fingers		#1791	[-]
Posts: 6282 (10/20/09 8:08 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If the intent is to give Monica a negative tone, the only way to do it is to give Kelly and Laura (if not the whole tribe) N tones as well. Monica was the more active agent, earning her her vis2, but her comments earn their N tone from the comments of everyone around her: Jeff and Shambo tell us that she's on the outs with her tribe. At the same time, we are shown Shambo leading the group to the fire and settling in for the night where she explains her bad situation. This is followed by the other women talking by the fire: Laura, " Isn't it nice being without her?" Kelly, "Yas?" Laura, "Sham." Kelly, "Oh, Sham for sure!" Laura, "Sham has a silliness about her that's socially awkward and so it's like...eiuww! ..Whereas, we can just sit here and chill and not think anything about it." Monica who has been listening laughs. We see that she's listened intently without commenting. Monica then has her confessional: "So, tribal was pretty crazy /break/ now in retrospect, I realize that /br/ Shambo's the only person here who voted against me. So, that kind of hangs over my head a little bit /br/ and so, I definitely want to continue and take Sham off. She's my next choice." The nastiness was from Laura and Kelly. Monica laughed, but we immediately get her confessional explaining her situation after the TC and her logical decision to vote for Shambo at next TC. Without Laura and Kelly's talk, Monica's confessional is perfectly reasonable for anyone in her position. But, by this time, most of Shambo's tribemates have been painted as negative characters: lazy, high school, Club Med goof-offs who can't fish or make fire. Individually, Monica's comments were hardly negative. But, as a member of the Mean Kids, anything short of hugging Sham and begging forgiveness is going to be seen as negative from here on out.
craig		#1792	[-]
Posts: 16329 (10/21/09 1:26 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	"It's a game. I wouldn't take it personally. It's raining and everyone's trying to stay warm." Lets parse that statement. It sounded not exactly self-contradictory, but more like she started saying one thing, realized it sounded mean, and then changed horses in the middle of a soliloquoy: Obviously the "it's raining" accounts for the lack of a warmer welcome, and "it's a game" accounts for the background conditions where some people are in alliances and some are outsiders. Real gamesmanship would involve giving Shambo fake hugs and being fake nice. But, by this time, most of Shambo's tribemates have been painted as negative characters: lazy, high school, Club Med goof-offs who can't fish or make fire. Individually, Monica's comments were hardly negative. Yes, it's the tribe that's N, not Monica. Monica was not targeted last week for social reasons (being mean to ousiders). She was targeted for challenge performance, and this week she corrected and did well in both ICs. Shambo has shared in Galu's N on several occasions (she's a goof too in suurvival skills) , and was shown talking smack about 90210 and Yoga before they said anything bad about her. Which makes it hard to see her as a victim overall, though she was this episode. A victim of Black Russell\s decision, and the ENTIRE tribe's lack of welcoming. PS - I think many viewers who identify with Shambo probably hate Monica most simply because she's the hot girl in the bikini, who is everything socially that Sham isn't. But that's stereotyping and prejudice and making assumptions not in the editing. PSS: Reminds me of Candice getting N for the armpit girl scene while Becky and Sundra got off. Last Edited By: craig 10/21/09 1:51 AM. Edited 2 times.
bryanpasa		#1793	[-]
Posts: 2541 (10/21/09 6:30 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't think Monica is an N but as the producers edit it, they make it seem that Monica is the main force.... Laura and Kelly are the ones that should get N since they laughed, pushed Shambo away without any strategic explanation while Monica explained it. (I'm not a fan of Monica but I think she dominantly isn't N and her sudden anger against Shambo is really understandable. So Neutral for Monica, Laura and Kelly are N)
AveryC		#1794	[-]
Posts: 6 (10/21/09 7:44 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	PSS: Reminds me of Candice getting N for the armpit girl scene while Becky and Sundra got off. Candice had a confessional about the issue which was edited negatively though, which is what pushed her into N territory over Becky and Sundra. Sundra also had a whole other scene where she was integrated into the Aitu majority, with postitive SPV from established P players. On my chart I'm doing for that season now I gave Candice N and Sundra P, but I'm reviewing both when I'm finished. On a completly seperate note, has culmative visibility ever been looked at in terms of trends and comparisons across seasons? I looked into it today and compared this season's totals with Fiji (since comparisons between the two appear common of late). I found these pieces of infomation particularly noteworty: Culmative Visibility up to episode 5 - Brett 14 - Laura 28 - Kelly 29 - John 31 and from Fiji - Liliana 32 You know a season's bad when Liliana has had more screentime than 4 people.
scepticA		#1795	[-]
Posts: 1724 (10/21/09 11:55 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig wrote: Obviously the "it's raining" accounts for the lack of a warmer welcome, and "it's a game" accounts for the background conditions where some people are in alliances and some are outsiders. Real gamesmanship would involve giving Shambo fake hugs and being fake nice. This was my point. However, the "game" comment came first, so you've got a cart/horse issue. Good gamesmanship would have had them be nice. Monica's Just a Game statement thus seemed utterly incongruous - gamesmanship be damned, they were gonna diss her. In other words, it wasn't a game at that moment. They were assholes - this reunion was the summation of all the anti-Shambo stuff in Galu in this episode, and JP called them out. They did nothing to hide their animosity. Monica was their spokesman. To say that she wasn't N - or at least this wasn't an N moment for her - is silly. I don't care if someone else, or others, said mean crap earlier about Shambo. This was Monica's moment. And no, I'm not a fan of Shambo. She's annoying. She is a screwup. That doesn't change the utter meanness and lack of game play of Galu towards her. If there's an annoying Yorky in the apartment next to you who barks all the time you still wouldn't want to see her kicked by her owner. Heck, I'm not a fan of anyone - maybe Liz, cuz she has her head screwed on right, but she has that INV so I can't do edgic legerdemain to rationalize her as a winner. Mick is inoffensive, but that's neutral in the "like" chart. Jaison whines, Shambo has a screw loose. Who was the person standing behind Shambo at the "just a game" reunion? Dave? At least he rubbed her shoulders. So maybe I'm a fan of his.
fat little fingers		#1796	[-]
Posts: 6283 (10/21/09 1:12 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	craig, I think you're thinking too much in fan mode. And its made you miss my point. Monica was not targeted last week for social reasons (being mean to ousiders). She was targeted for challenge performance, and this week she corrected and did well in both ICs. Editing-wise, she didn't correct anything. She remained negative because her position is anti-Shambo (who the edit is working to keep very sympathetic to the viewer) and she is shown as very much a part of the anti-Shambo club. Her IC performance got no more attention than the other Galuians and the focus for P tone was all on Liz. [Shambo] was shown talking smack about 90210 and Yoga before they said anything bad about her. Which makes it hard to see her as a victim overall, Again, I think you are picking and choosing parts of the edit to fit your fan view of Monica and possibly others on Galu. Shambo's statements and criticisms were demonstrated every time by the editors with scenes that were meant to have us shake our heads in agreement with Shambo's views. The story was/is that Shambo was left to do the needed work while the others frolicked in the water and lay on the beach. Each recap, Jeff has framed it as a given that Shambo was a worker, while the others played. PS - I think many viewers who identify with Shambo probably hate Monica most simply because she's the hot girl in the bikini, "the hot girl in the bikini", sort of gives away your fan bias. To me she's an average, slightly-built, attractive young woman, playing an average game, who probably, in reality, had normal, everyday reactions to events and people around her. The "haters" are just more fans who simply have fan hates and loves different from yours. But, Monica's visibility and tone ratings have fit the edit. It's true that some Edgic votes may be fan influenced, but I think her voting results have been Edgically reasonable. Yes, Monica's comments were fairly neutral in themselves, but combined with the "Galu vs Shambo" edit intention, she, like her tribe in general, is meant to be a baddie. And with her confessional of targeting Shambo, no matter how reasonable a position, she is now Shambo's big enemy and, I believe, meant to be disliked for it by the viewer.
panurge46		#1797	[-]
Posts: 1503 (10/21/09 4:39 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well said flf. I just wanted to add regarding: "Shambo has shared in Galu's N... and was shown talking smack about 90210 and Yoga before they said anything bad about her." If Shambo was talking smack as craig suggests then we'd expect the Club Med to prove her wrong by outlasting her. If it's Burnett using Shambo to send a message that Survivor isn't Club Med then Shambo wasn't talking smack. I,m pretty sure Shambo outlast Laura, Kelly and Monica. PS: It's not hate, craig. I'll enjoy watching Monica run around in her bikini but I won't bet on her chances of winning.
BlakeB717		#1798	[-]
Posts: 1949 (10/21/09 6:54 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: craig, I think you're thinking too much in fan mode. And its made you miss my point. Monica was not targeted last week for social reasons (being mean to ousiders). She was targeted for challenge performance, and this week she corrected and did well in both ICs. Editing-wise, she didn't correct anything. She remained negative because her position is anti-Shambo (who the edit is working to keep very sympathetic to the viewer) and she is shown as very much a part of the anti-Shambo club. Her IC performance got no more attention than the other Galuians and the focus for P tone was all on Liz. [Shambo] was shown talking smack about 90210 and Yoga before they said anything bad about her. Which makes it hard to see her as a victim overall, Again, I think you are picking and choosing parts of the edit to fit your fan view of Monica and possibly others on Galu. Shambo's statements and criticisms were demonstrated every time by the editors with scenes that were meant to have us shake our heads in agreement with Shambo's views. The story was/is that Shambo was left to do the needed work while the others frolicked in the water and lay on the beach. Each recap, Jeff has framed it as a given that Shambo was a worker, while the others played. PS - I think many viewers who identify with Shambo probably hate Monica most simply because she's the hot girl in the bikini, "the hot girl in the bikini", sort of gives away your fan bias. To me she's an average, slightly-built, attractive young woman, playing an average game, who probably, in reality, had normal, everyday reactions to events and people around her. The "haters" are just more fans who simply have fan hates and loves different from yours. But, Monica's visibility and tone ratings have fit the edit. It's true that some Edgic votes may be fan influenced, but I think her voting results have been Edgically reasonable. Yes, Monica's comments were fairly neutral in themselves, but combined with the "Galu vs Shambo" edit intention, she, like her tribe in general, is meant to be a baddie. And with her confessional of targeting Shambo, no matter how reasonable a position, she is now Shambo's big enemy and, I believe, meant to be disliked for it by the viewer. Awesome, awesome, awesome post. Sorry craig but sometimes your fan-mode analysis can be so frustrating because you totally pick and choose and exaggerate things that the editors don't even emphasize on.
Phoenix1269		#1799	[-]
Posts: 726 (10/21/09 8:55 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	BlakeB717 wrote: chapera rocks wrote: It's pretty ridiculous Natalie is being considered an edgic candidate. No matter how weird this season is, she breaks several fundamental rules. She's not winning. Speaking for me, I eliminated her Episode 1 and I've checked her off on the eliminated canditates thing each week. This week I put her as contender 3 because I didn't know who else to put since I've eliminated everyone else. Phoenix, will it work if we just leave a contender spot blank? I wasn't sure, so I gave it to the better edit of the eliminated people (was going to give it to Russ H, but I think Natalie's story is about beating him so that wouldn't make much sense). This may explain why a lot of badly editted people are getting winner votes--CAN we leave a space blank on the site? I don't know?! you can leave anything you want blank.... except your name!! if it is in the ratings, on tone, it defaults to 0, everything else - blank, in this way it doesn't affect the the averages. on the winners lists it defaults to blank, so no score is calculated and averages are not messed up. This week we are down to 2 picks anyway and then, i think it's next week we go to one... (i have to check my schedule for that) eta: spelling Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 10/21/09 9:05 PM. Edited 1 times.
Phoenix1269		#1800	[-]
Posts: 727 (10/21/09 8:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oowatanite wrote: GoHomeAndEatYoRice wrote: The amount of Monica Fantardness is getting too high right now. She was UTRN2. Just deal with it. (Monica<3) I guess Warrior and flf are Monicatards then, since they both gave her neutral tone this episode. i guess i am too.... not seeing the N's for Monica. I felt she was neutral. But then, I thought Liz was neutral too...

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S-19 Edgic (editing and logic)

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