S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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ncassaro		#5001	[-]
Posts: 462 (12/19/08 6:15 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: Actually, Susie's non-presence raise an interesting question: Would she have been edited much differently, had she won? Obviously, Bob's edit would've been even more UTR with generous lashings of INV but I'm not all that sure that they would've built up the edit of this type of winner all that much. They might've gone for a WTF edit and I don't think I'd blame them. If Susie had won, I definitely think we would've seen more of her. Contrary to what she said about keeping a low profile, we heard in Insider and interviews that she apparently never shut up. Plus we know she was a huge worker around camp and I think we would've seen more of that. When she won immunity in the fire building contest I think we would've gotten an actual confessional about it. I don't think she would have gotten a CP edit, but we would've seen a lot more of her.
ncassaro		#5002	[-]
Posts: 463 (12/19/08 6:19 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	What would they have done to prevent the audience feeling cheated by such an outcome? Well, it's all supposition, but all the good v evil themes would've been thrown overboard, replaced by some quirky sleight-of-hand to prepare the audience for the surprising outcome. (They would've kept the teamwork theme, lol). As with Bob, this type of winner couldn't possibly be predicted by Edgic fundamentals. Compared to the winner, everyone is a distraction. The winner would so well-hidden, even a search party made up of TLS and Wallduck wouldn't be able to find her among the INVs. At least, and again, I freely admit it's only supposition, it appears reasonable to predict that this type of winner can only be predicted by story/theme analysis. I still really don't think any good v. evil theme even started until the Crystal boot episode, but they could've done something. I feel cheated even now. China was the story of Todd. Micronesia was the story of Parvati. Gabon was honestly the story of Sugar. This is why edgic usually works, because they don't want the audience to be like, "WTF? S/he didn't deserve to win!" In other threads, people have said they felt the season was spoiled by Bob winning. I still think it was a great season, but Bob didn't deserve to win based on the edit he got. Only in strange circumstances where it's difficult to explain why the winner won do they do these Type B edits, and there's a reason for that. Edgic's best bet is looking at how to identify type B seasons, which is what we're doing.... We want to improve the edgic fundementals we have, not become a theme thread. Again. green coffee wrote: All in all, I really think this discussion is going nowhere from both perspectives. Theme people are not going to be convinced that it's not Edgic and Edgic people are not going to eschew their methods in favor of theme. At this point I'd personally rather discuss issues in Edgic like whether or not INV works and/or how we can rework guidelines to fit Bob's, Danni's, Vee's, etc. Thanks for the discussion. As always, I entirely agree with green coffee. And we wouldn't even still be having this conversation if both sides weren't trying to get in jabs at each other. And BTW, INV definitely works. I think Gabon proves that better than any other season. Last Edited By: ncassaro 12/19/08 6:24 AM. Edited 2 times.
Phoenix1269		#5003	[-]
Posts: 386 (12/19/08 8:47 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	BlakeB717 wrote: Also, once the finale ratings are all in and posted (completing the chart), then I will again this season take up the role of tallying and keeping track of overall seasonal ratings if that is OK with everybody. blake... once everything is submitted and processed... will you require anything from me (ie in the form of raw data or spreadsheets?)
Brazil Luvs Ami		#5004	[-]
Posts: 182 (12/19/08 8:57 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I got back from the Amazon (Manaus) this week, and watched the 2 last episodes (Crystal's boot and final 5), and I have to say: I'm completly surprised with the outcome.. No way I would ever imagined that Bob would come up winning this season... At least I always said I've never felt that Kenny was winning and, at the same time, was never confident with my pick (Matty)... Edgic would never predict Bob winning because he doesn't fit the guidelines... My ratings for the 2 episodes (I made the F6 ratings before watching the finale): F6: Crystal - MORN3 Kenny - OTTN4 Matty - CPP3 Sugar - CPP4 Susie - UTR1 Bob - CPP3 F5: Ken - OTTN2 Matty - MORP2 Sugar - CPP4 Susie - CPM4 Bob - CPP3
Warrior		#5005	[-]
Posts: 2774 (12/19/08 10:21 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	flf...Please
Casey333		#5006	[-]
Posts: 642 (12/19/08 11:31 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	This is why edgic usually works, because they don't want the audience to be like, "WTF? S/he didn't deserve to win!" In other threads, people have said they felt the season was spoiled by Bob winning. I still think it was a great season, but Bob didn't deserve to win based on the edit he got. Believe me, that's a minority opinion shared by Sucks posters only. The "average viewer" is thrilled that the lovable old guy won (the fact he also won the $100,000 popularity vote is proof of that). Maybe that's why they didn't feel the need to explain his win any further. Being the lovable old guy was good enough.
Green Coffee		#5007	[-]
Posts: 150 (12/19/08 11:44 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Casey333 wrote: Believe me, that's a minority opinion shared by Sucks posters only. The "average viewer" is thrilled that the lovable old guy won (the fact he also won the $100,000 popularity vote is proof of that). I can vouch for this. The secretaries at my office were so happy about it the next day. They were so happy a "good person" who "didn't play nasty" finally won. This is why I think the logic of editing progresses the way it does. If you are not given a strategic story to tell which explains clearly why the winner made moves to win (the editing ideal, apparently), you must do what you must to make the winner likable. Make it UTRP, OTTP, or MORP if you have to - just make it so most viewers will be happy, even if they don't respect their game.
craig		#5008	[-]
Posts: 14594 (12/19/08 11:49 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	China was the story of Todd. Micronesia was the story of Parvati. Gabon was honestly the story of Sugar. For me, it was the story of Competent, Challenge-winning Kota suffering setbacks but prevailing in the end. Early editing tipped us off that Fang would find a way to lose in the end. Except maybe Matty, who was edited off if he didn't belong with those Mutants. Bob wasn't a great strategist or a great personality, but he was competent - a builder, a survivalist and Mr. Gadget extraordinaire. Kota excelled at challenges, which was Bob's path to victory. The "crazy bitch tries to hand Matty or Bob the million because they remind her of her dead father and brother" storyline plays a role at end, but it's much like the surprise of Lill helping Sandra beat the bad guys in the last two episodes of Pearl Islands. (Okay I'm being glib, but I can't take seriously the idea that people are "good" merely because they are non-strategic,)
unduli clone		#5009	[-]
Posts: 3610 (12/19/08 1:01 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	^ How do Susie and Sugar fit into that, though? Susie was part of the original negative Fang then the positive Kota, but Sugar was the reserve. Kota was the pre-merge story but it was all about underdogs after that.
TallBill		#5010	[-]
Posts: 23 (12/19/08 2:15 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: Any wonder the editors decided not to explain how she came to within a vote of winning but, instead, apparently opted to share their own surprise with the audience? Two other theories: 1. There's some kind of multi-tier division of responsibilities among the editors. Maybe a "high-up" muckity-muck editor guy edits the most important episodes (first and last?), while lower ranking editors handle the others. And maybe the high-up guy knows the outcome, while a larger group of lower-ranking editors are kept from it. This would explain the incredibly dramatic difference in visibility between Susie final-episode and Susie rest-of-season. The lower ranking editors knew she made the finals, but figured she got no votes since she wasn't liked. 2. The editors hated the onions, and the onions voted for Susie, so it's another way of pointing out how petty they were. On a related note, I'm almost tempted to think Corinne's edit was geared toward doing her the least favors. They didn't show her enough to make her a big a player in the game, but they did show the worst side of her -- repeatedly. So they made her look small and ugly.
TheIsraeliDevil	Finale	#5011	[-]
Posts: 2141 (12/19/08 4:07 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Just watched the finale... I have about 40 pages of replies to go over, but the basic thing here for me is the editors got it wrong this time. They created fantastic drama around the foursome of Ken/Matty/Crystal/especially Sugar (the most compelling character in this show for years), but they forgot that in the end Bob won, and what's more amazing is that Susie nearly won. When the vote was tied 3-3 between Bob and Susie, I, just like many other people I know, was simply thinking "Who cares? Wasn't the whole thing about Sugar?". Many people who thought this was atleast an OK season until the finale now hate it. So while Edgic did get it wrong, I wouldn't sweat it so much. We'll try again next time, and hopefully next season there's more logic to the editing. If every season is now edited with such a black-and-white tone, we might have to consider changing the theory. Oh, and Corinne's a total whore. Hope she dies. Nasty bitch. And Marcus sucks really bad, too.
BlakeB717		#5012	[-]
Posts: 1258 (12/19/08 6:36 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Nope I'm a-okay Phoenix. Thanks though =)!
donutsrule		#5013	[-]
Posts: 281 (12/19/08 6:52 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: Donuts, I think what Panurge meant by that comment was that, although the episodes were rated separately, he believes people were still influenced by what they had seen in Episode 1 when they were rating episode 2. That's actually what I meant a well GR. It was treated like one big episode and it shouldn't have been just because everyone saw two episodes one after the other. Still wouldn't have led to Bob being the winner but I think it would've knocked Marcus down a peg or two.
cindidindi76		#5014	[-]
Posts: 14146 (12/19/08 8:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	It wasn't treated like one big episode. Two episodes, two ratings. Just because someone (or a couple someones) thinks that people inaccurately rated the second episode doesn't mean it was treated as one episode.
OnlyTheHunter		#5015	[-]
Posts: 1909 (12/19/08 9:12 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	TallBill said 2. The editors hated the onions, and the onions voted for Susie, so it's another way of pointing out how petty they were. Do you mean Fang? The onions + Randy voted for Bob. The three other original Fang voted Susie. After this weekend I should have a clear easy week to actually make a few suggestions, then the week after Christmas, I am done for a week as my kids are coming for a week, and I won't have another care in the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Qucik hits - Normally, a zero vote getter is shown as a tagalong, unimportant, useless. But that wasn't possible given the very real points of the game where Sugar was crucial. So instead of lopping off some of Matty or Kenny, they cut back Susie, and the pattern of one low visibility player in a F3 stayed intact. Where Bob was UTR but well defined, Susie was simply ignored. Admittedly, I don't know why. It wouldn't have taken much to have to make her look plausible, and known. Let that be a lesson, I'm using it as one. Bob and Susie were often UTR, but Bob has some clear definition, with some care taken. I looked past him, but I'm learning from it. It was correct to ignore Susie. Bob was always juuuuuuuuuuust there, even earning the rare UTRP1. A 1 V with Tone is interesting. That's not "boring string of UTR" like my dear deaparted Alexis kept getting. That's another thing I should watch for. Donutsrule, in episode 2, which I alwas treated that way, Marcus defined the onions, even using that term. Right? Why would that have taken him down a peg? A little quieter, but showing his game setup...that's good. I give the editors great credit on Kenny. Fantastic decoy up until the end. All the buildup just to have Sugar mistrust him in the end and foil him. That's awesome. Matty, no secret I never bought into him. Always something felt lacking to me. Corrine was out by episode 5 and trying to support the idea that she could have won just doesn't cut it. She should have been eliminated, rightfully so. Okay, night all. I hope to contribute better by Monday. I'm still here. Michael
tropical rain		#5016	[-]
Posts: 370 (12/20/08 8:33 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Final exams are over, so I can continue posting here again... yes! I would like to be considered to be a player watchdog next season if we do bring them back. Good post OTH. I really should've eliminated Corinne by episode five. Next season I'm going to stick to the INV rule. On a side note, does anyone know when we need to get our votes in?
guatemala fanfic		#5017	[-]
Posts: 4030 (12/20/08 8:46 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Congratulations on finishing your exams, tropical rain! On a side note, does anyone know when we need to get our votes in? I believe it is Monday the 22nd.
tropical rain		#5018	[-]
Posts: 371 (12/20/08 9:03 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Thank you guatemala fanfic! So far my results have been extremely good -- all of that studying really did pay off. Hopefully I can rewatch the finale by the 22nd, I just haven't been home enough to watch it for the second time. XD
EOrlins		#5019	[-]
Posts: 1379 (12/20/08 12:14 PM) Because it's just a stick!!! Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hi Everyone, I've been reading all season. Sorry things didn't pan out this season for Edgic. I still think you guys are amazing and I love reading your analysis. One thing I wanted to bring up which I'm not sure you guys will like to hear but it was something I found out in speaking to producers about Edgic (haha, yes now they know about you!!). I'm not sure if this will be as huge of a revelation as I think it is, but I'm just not sure if you know this. Okay, here it is: The first episode is edited before the season is even over! This means, when episode one is completed, the producers don't even know who the final 2/3 are, let alone the winner. This, I think, would change the analysis you guys do because then maybe episode 1 isn't as important as you think it is. What do you think? Hope everyone is having a great holiday season!
Kitty Pryde1		#5020	[-]
Posts: 7566 (12/20/08 12:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	How far into the game would you say the players are before they edit episode 1? Final 5, final 6?

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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