| Started By | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
AndreSurvivor |
|||
|
Should we have watchdogs again next season?
|
|||
AndreSurvivor |
|||
Kitty Pryde1 wrote:Wow... great minds, as they say. I agree with that. A postmortem on "top picks" of Kenny and Matty and winner Bob might also be beneficial. |
|||
craig |
|||
(He really was a rather poor sport after Susie's victory before Sugar decided to save him.) It makes for a clunky ending. That scene showed Susie's social ineptitude, She meant to be nice, but came across as rubbing it in . Didn't Bob win through "ruthless efficiency" in challenges. Plus Sugar taking a shining to him that wasn't far removed from Charlie and Corinne's feelings about Marcus ("he didn't deserve to go.") Kenny may have been an underdog hero for a brief moment around the merge, but it is Fang's early editing that is destiny. Last time I badly missed the theme was when I picked Eliza after she became underdog P heroine in Vanuatu. But she begans with 3 N episodes, and that doomed her. The endgame story was Eliza vs Twout ruining each others game, allowing Chris to win. |
|||
TallBill |
|||
AndreSurvivor wrote:I think what we saw with Sugar draws out a natural tension in the game. On the one hand, in at least some cases, people naturally want to help or promote somone they respect. People in this game often hang out with the folks they like, respect, or view as having admirable qualities of some sort. Bob was certainly a great survivor -- of the final five people on the show, he's the one you'd pick (by a mile) to have around in a survival situation. And on top of that, he's a nice guy, someone you admire personally. On the other hand, players of this game want to win. So they very much do not want to have the person around who is broadly admired, liked, and skilled. Usually, that tension is resolved on the side of winning the game -- getting rid of the biggest threats, who are usually the skilled/admired persons. But a player of this game has to wonder, in dealing with any other player of this game, whether they will place some real value on promoting the deserving or liked person, and whether, at any point, that value will exceed other considerations. It's always possible. And it's something a good player of this game should think about and try to factor into their maneuverings. Hence, we heard Corrine complain about Marcus' boot and talk about how much more deserving he was than the rest of them -- something to think about, specifically, when dealing with Corrine. This tension between these two natural human concerns is just one aspect of the social game. It's not inherently illegitimate to play for the perceived deserving and to at least claim a sense of honor in the game. Nor is it illegitimate to play the other way. The game is designed to be a clash of values, and the interesting thing is how complicated these natural tensions become. If you go the "honor" route, in the vast majority of cases the people claiming honor did not live up to it. Certainly, Sugar didn't. So you've got hypocrisy on a large scale and a certain unpleasant sanctimoniousness. If, on the other hand, you go the pure-game-focused route of eliminating the most deserving players, one after the other, the whole game takes on a perverse quality in which social and physical skills are actually likely to get you eliminated. It's a weird tension between the two, with, usually, a lean toward the cut-throat rather than honorable route. The fact that Sugar went the other route, at the end, made this season more interesting to me than if it were purely focused on individual strategy. |
|||
TheLurkerSpeaks |
|||
panurge46 wrote:Panurge, With all due respect, your theories are not Edgic. Bob is not justifiable by Edgic. Now, the fact that he won does mean we need to re-evaluate whether it makes sense to continue or not when Edgic doesn't always hold, but it doesn't change the fact that your theme theories are not Edgic. Either this season is an anomaly or Edgic is invalidated. Extending the guidelines to admit Bob basically means there is no cohesive Edgic theory at all. Yes, you had Ken and Crystal more OTTN than here. And guess what! You were still wrong. I don't care if your ratings better fit your made up theory about theme. (Here, we're back to the argument of analysis implies ratings rather than the reverse.) Ken and Crystal were not OTTN in general, and certainly not as much as you seemed to think. Given you were looking at Corinne earlier this season, I think you just don't have a clue about what OTTN really is. (Hint - it's Corinne and Randy.) Adding your theme layer doesn't make Edgic better - it just confuses what Edgic is. Sorry, but I didn't see any discussion last night about good v. evil. Even Ken's boot was portrayed as just him being a bigger challenge threat than Susie. Your theme business comes and goes, making it highly subjective and easily revised to fit whatever actually occurs, and it isn't duplicative, meaning we can't take anything from it to apply in the future. So, again, take your theories to another thread. You are free to remain to discuss Edgic. |
|||
astroline |
|||
AndreSurvivor wrote:I've already said that multiple times since Marcus got voted out, but whatever. I had also said MANY times that we needed a new system of WD'ing, but instead of that, everyone else just threw it out. I hope you guys will finally reconsider and actually realize I might have had a good idea. But probably not. I'll be back to post final season ratings. Man, this season really sucked. Susie's editing was atrocious. She loses to Bob by 1 vote, of an incidence between her & Randy that we barely even saw and heard about. Absolutely pathetic. How can we do Edgic correctly anymore when the editors don't even do their jobs now? |
|||
TheLurkerSpeaks |
|||
AndreSurvivor wrote: Watchdogs would have been irrelevant. Sorry, but no amount of attention would have made Bob fit Edgic. |
|||
guatemala fanfic |
|||
|
I agree about bringing Watchdogs back next season, but I don't think that would have helped anyone predict Bob as the winner.
|
|||
TheLurkerSpeaks |
|||
Kitty Pryde1 wrote: I don't buy this either. The editors screwed us over by not developing the winner as Edgic theory asserts they will. Marcus' edit fit the guidelines, and thus it received reasonable attention. Ken's edit fit the guidelines, and thus it received reasonable attention. Matty's edit at least sort of fit the guidelines (if weakly) and thus it received attention. The flaw isn't in how we applied Edgic. The flaw was just that the assumptions that form the basis for Edgic did not apply to this season. Complexity isn't based upon alliance structure. It is based upon the tensions being built up between the players, particularly if they are set up for a resolution down the road. That is Fang (especially new Fang) much moreso than Kota. |
|||
Kirblar |
|||
|
TheLurkerSpeaks-
|
|||
TheLurkerSpeaks |
|||
|
Kirblar,
Have you read what I've been writing? Apparently not if you feel the need to spell that out for me. |
|||
Kirblar |
|||
|
Yes, you've unilaterally declared that anyone doing a holistic non-mathematical approach is simply "not edgic." Which is pretty ridiculous.
Editing analyses existed long before INV1 and OTTP3 |
|||
DarkHelmet |
|||
Kirblar wrote:That's way too rational, and concise, people will never buy it! |
|||
TheLurkerSpeaks |
|||
|
Kirblar,
That's because it isn't Edgic. If people want to use some other method of figuring out the winner, they are free to do so ... elsewhere. If it works better, good for them! But I want them to quit coming in here and telling us that Edgic needs their theme theories to work. Edgic will work without them when it works (and it will fail with them when it doesn't). The only real question is whether this season is an anomaly as far as how the editors decided to edit the winner. If it is, then we move on and treat it as such. If it isn't, then Edgic can no longer be relied upon, and we should just let it die. As I already stated, I'm leaning toward the first, mainly because I enjoy doing Edgic, not theme theories or whatever such nonsense, and because at this point, it still works more often than not (even if I don't individually pick the winner). ETA I find it funny that you think your jibe about the mathematical nature of Edgic affects me. I'm not the one who thinks this is a math problem. Editing analysis predates Edgic, but that only makes my point. Not all editing analysis is Edgic.
Last Edited By: TheLurkerSpeaks
12/15/08 11:42 AM.
Edited 1 times.
|
|||
MyChemicalShowmance |
|||
MyChemicalShowmance wrote, at 11/7/08 11:43AM (after the Marcus boot):Addendum: |
|||
Kirblar |
|||
TheLurkerSpeaks wrote:So you'd rather have it die than let it evolve? |
|||
Green Coffee |
|||
|
I think watchdogs should return, but with a different purpose.
Making sure each players has "the right rating" is admirable in the short term, but it does not keep a bad Edgic edit in the running. Bob's watchdog would not have done much, as I assume they would have abandoned him partway through the season for having no chance. Instead, I think watchdogs should exist to play devil's advocate for each player left in contention. They should make an argument for how this player could possibly win the game given their editing and express that to everyone. This does not need to mirror their actual winner pick! Arguments for the Corinnes and the Susies out there should be made, but with the caveat that their chances for being right are understood to be low. The purpose of watchdogs is to prevent groupthink and gravitation toward one single explanation and answer (Marcus). I think having each player get at least one post per episode dedicated to how their editing might fit a win would reduce the risk of future Marcus flops. However, this would increase the likelihood of dissention in Edgic and a lack of consensus. I think as long as everyone recognizes that the arguments made are purely devil's advocate type arguments, this would not be as big of a problem. Here's how I would hypothetically put one of these together: First, examine Player X's fit with traditional, Type A editing guidelines. Second, examine Player X's fit with Type B (Danni/Bob) editing guidelines (which should be created this offseason - it's happened twice now and we need to recognize who fits these types of winner edits). Third, if applicable, postulate on how Player X might be a Type C winner edit. This would only be done if the player clearly does not fit Types A or B. In terms of winner chances, those who fit Type A typically have the highest chances, with Type B right behind, followed by Type C. If a player is being argued to have a "Type C" edit, they are all but eliminated. If the player fits Type B the best, they are not eliminated completely, but it is recognized that they are unlikely to win unless situational constraints created the edit. If a person fits Type A the best, they have good winner chances, as this is the most common winner prototype thus far. I think doing watchdog analyses in these ways we accomplish a few things: - Avoid groupthink and premature conclusions - Recognize and systematically identify non Type A winner edits and keep them viable for longer - Still maintain that Type As are very likely to win, while recognizing the possibility for Type Bs (or even Type Cs) and being prepared for it. Given what we now know, it may be extremely difficult to ever have a single, unanimous, dominant winner pick in Edgic again. There are clearly multiple prototypes for winner edits to be considered. While there is more "umph" to making a single winner pick, it is the riskier manuever. By recognizing multiple types and keeping both viable, we don't have a simple pick anymore, but we don't misfire nearly as often. Just food for thought on the whole issue. Nothing drastic being recommended. |
|||
DarkHelmet |
|||
|
I'm not sure why so few people can grasp this, but if "sometimes Edgic works, and sometimes Edgic doesn't work," then Edgic doesn't work.
|
|||
heyheyitspeter |
|||
|
anywayyyy Sugar CPP5?
|
|||
chaperone |
|||
|
Edgic failed to pick Bob. However, it's not on point to argue that edgic should've "picked Susie more than they did" "because she
received 3 votes at FTC". Edgic was never intended to pick 2nd place. We've had 2nd place folks who have been INV, ignored in long stretches, etc.
Of course, now we've had a winner ignored in long stretches... |
|||