S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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dcsurvivor		#4321	[-]
Posts: 222 (12/12/08 4:56 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Watching the faces of the jury as Sugar gave Matty the idol, they were very pleased. To me, this indicates that either Matty or Sugar's chances just went up. They might perceive this as a major strategic move on Sugar's part, or simply that they are happy that Matty is still in the game. After all, they know that Kenny, Crystal and Susie were responsible for all of them being on the jury. I totally agree, with someone who posted earlier who said, that they want us to feel good about the winner. Let's see........who really would feel good about Kenny winning? He has been shown over playing the game and has emerged as a liar. I am not sure the average viewer would feel good about that. I think the audience would be happy with a Matty, Sugar, or Bob win. Kenny or Susie......NO. My friends, who are casual viewers to say the least, can't stand Kenny. They love Sugar and have no real feelings one way or the other about Matty. If Jeff Probst says we will feel good about the winner, how can it be Kenny? He has become way too cocky, been caught lying, and now he tries to make Bob feel sorry for him, so he could blindside him. Yes, that's someone I would root for. Even Rich and Brian played a pretty straight foward game, all the while being arrogant and cocky. I understood them winning the seasons they were on. I don't think Kenny is in the same league. I think the final 3 will be Matty, Sugar, and Susie. A comment was made last night about how Susie loves Matty. I think the three will stick together and remove Kenny and Bob from the game. If this happens, I think Matty will emerge as the winner of Survivor Gabon.
James Barber		#4322	[-]
Posts: 14754 (12/12/08 5:05 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	menelaus wrote: Even with Ken's peculiar situation, I still think he wins. Going back to episode one and the Michelle thing. They showed it. They never showed a lot of the other not so important relationships in the game (Paloma/Charlie wasn't shown at all, only alluded to in Charlie's voting confessional, and the two had comparable impact on the game). This season has the whole "good" v "evil" thing, and you could call underdogs good. Ken is an underdog again for the 4th time (with Michelle, the Ace coup, the Marcus coup, and now). He barely had control for two minutes, and it was smashed instantly. He also got an edit that looked pretty good during the Marcus saga, but it was ignored because Marcus's edit was so obvious. I think those scenes were supposed to show us Ken going from very meek to later on being very powerful. I don't remember any sympathetic editing in those moments. He was the young guy who had the hots for the team pariah. We never saw him working to save her, we never saw him feeling vulnerable about his place in the tribe. His alliance with GC and Crystal was presented as Crystal being crazy, GC being a quitter, and Ken again being the young, bumbling strategist (saying one of the reasons he chose Kelly was her being hot, later dumping both GC and Kelly). Fang was shown as the pit of dysfunction and Ken was edited as being right in the middle of it. When Ken did start to get control of the game, the times we saw him were often spent showing us the negative side of his actions. Sugar's crying after Matty told her Ken had lied to her. Ken bragging about wanting Charlie out for personal reasons, and the reluctance of Sugar to keep Corinne and Randy around longer than Charlie. Both of these moments led up to the big one, Ken voting for Matty over Corinne as some power move or attempt at jury votes. All this was to build up Sugar deciding he was no longer one of the "good" people, and essentially to show him causing the defeat of Crystal, his loyal partner. That's the underlying question in Ken's edit. Is he an underdog? Can you be an underdog if the main reason you are an underdog is your own bad strategy? Last Edited By: James Barber 12/12/08 5:08 AM. Edited 2 times.
getting real		#4323	[-]
Posts: 1429 (12/12/08 5:25 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	dcsurvivor said: Let's see........who really would feel good about Kenny winning? He has been shown over playing the game and has emerged as a liar. I am not sure the average viewer would feel good about that. I think the audience would be happy with a Matty, Sugar, or Bob win. Kenny or Susie......NO. And that, my friends is the power of editing. You've already labelled your season as "Earth's last Eden". You assign a certain kind of negative tone to those who haven't won, you portray the winner and a couple of others as the good guys. And voila: You have a titanic 'Good v Evil' (or ''Saints'' v ''Sinners'') which you trumpet at every opportunity. Does anyone really, really believe that the producers can get away with one of the good guys not winning now? And, TLS, I guess the theme of Crystal's edit, apart from the Olympian joke at her expense (lol at the slam dunk) and apart from her not being a team player (as per the inserted confessional after that IC) was her instability. As her final words about how she shouldn't have dissed Matty proved. Even the season's edited worst player (Kelly) was right about her. That's why that was shown and that was why Probst repeated it right after her.
TheIsraeliDevil	Ep. 12	#4324	[-]
Posts: 2140 (12/12/08 5:25 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Can Sugar win? Please please please please please please... I <3 her so much. She had a god-like edit in this episode - it was almost bizzare. But really, Matty wins. Kenny might win too, but he probably won't... has to be good triumphs over evil with Matty winning.
boardies20		#4325	[-]
Posts: 50 (12/12/08 6:01 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Pretty good episode, had me on the edge of my seat hahaha :) Bob - CPP3 - Weighed his options on whether to give Ken the II, assessed Sugar's speech to him etc Crystal - MOR3 - Bland nothing, yes to Ken's every single word, and yes the editors HAD to show her failing to throw the ball into the net, even if she was 2 feet away... Ken - CPN4 - "Bob is lose/lose no matter what" was wrong, still seems arrogant and self absorbed Matty - MORN3 - Whining all episode, how he hates Ken/Crystal Sugar - CPP5 - More @$+, more strategy, more blindside "The good guys should win in the end", "Let me do the thinking, Matty" Susie - UTR1 - Errr no comment F3 of either Ken/Sugar/Susie or Matty/Sugar/Susie Winner 1. Ken 2. Matty
urrout		#4326	[-]
Posts: 1782 (12/12/08 7:27 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Venatrix Avia wrote: By granting Kenny, rather than Crystal herself, primary agency for the Corinne vote, the editors are making sure that the audience reads it as "Kenny's blunder leads directly to Kenny's setback." And just to make sure that we do that, we're also given that early confessional, in which Crystal talks about her suspicion that her vote for Corinne was a terrible mistake. (Note that Crystal has consistently been portrayed throughout this season as strongly intuitive; it is the only aspect of the game at which she has been shown to do well.) This too reinforces the idea that the blunder wasn't really Crystal's so much as it was Kenny's. But in her final words she blames herself.
MyChemicalShowmance		#4327	[-]
Posts: 1313 (12/12/08 8:15 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I am going to LMAO if Edgic makes Kenny as a top winner pick, with Matty as second-place winner pick, and Bob ends up winning the whole thing.
cyclehausen		#4328	[-]
Posts: 4443 (12/12/08 8:16 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	If the theme is good vs.evil, then Matty's winning chances are strong. The #1 thing Matty has going against him logically is his lack of strategy. But what if the game itself is inherently evil, and the only good action you can take in the game is voting out people who are succumbing to evil - that is, playing the game too hard by lying and betraying? Then Matty is the perfect player.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#4329	[-]
Posts: 1460 (12/12/08 8:27 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I only saw the last part of the episode so I'm not going to bother with ratings. Sure, I was surprised by the boot since I felt fairly sure Crystal was facing the jury. I still maintain that, with the post-merge cooldown, she wasn't a bad fit for Edgic although I'm sure some will say that because she lost that obviously I was wrong. (That's not a logical argument when even the best fit Edgically can still lose - see Marcus.) In any case, she was never my top choice, who is still in the game. I think it was OTH who reminded us that whoever looks like they can't possibly win (among serious Edgic contenders) in the penultimate episode will almost certainly win. That's Ken. He's gotten his game caught on a snag, just like his boat, but that doesn't mean he can't figure his way off. And from a game logic perspective, it isn't farfetched. As much as Sugar would like any one of the "good guys" to win, Matty and Susie at least want to win themselves. If Bob fails to win immunity, they are going to take him out. And Matty is likely just as vulnerable. And that's not even considering that Ken could win immunity himself. Where is it established that the audience will be happy with the winner? We've had plenty of negatively toned winners, and over the course of the season, Ken is actually more mixed. The winner will tend toward the middle, remember? The issue isn't likeability, but respect. We know Ken's been playing the game - not every move has succeeded, but that's true for many other winners too. He fits the acceptable winner mold. Bob will not win - he's far too OTTP overall, and since I cannot conceive of any way he doesn't win if he is in the finals, he will not get there. He's probably out first at F5. Susie will not win - I think we all agree with this. At this point, I think she makes the finals, but is a non-factor. Matty could win, I suppose, but he really came off really whiny in the few scenes I actually watched last night. His edit has actually been pretty flat with some OTTP highs. Does he win if he makes it to the end? He does against Sugar and Susie I would think, but I'm not sure he beats Ken. (Here's one area where Crystal joining the jury does help Ken.) He may well just miss, falling at F4. Sugar is the one that makes me nervous. I've had her off my list pretty much all season because she started out far too OTTP after low visibility in the early episodes. I think she's still eliminated as the major distraction of the season, but she's not really quite so OTTP anymore. She's still very positive, regardless what the reaction to Randy's fakeout was. She's definitely facing the jury, but can she win votes? I doubt it, but I'm not nearly as sure about this as I should be. Ken should have no problem getting votes if he makes the end. I think he can beat anyone except Bob (although I could see a Matty v. Ken matchup going either way). From an Edgic perspective, he's easily the best fit. So even if it looks like he's next out, I still think it is him.
Warrior		#4330	[-]
Posts: 2768 (12/12/08 8:49 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	"Sugar: MORP3 The commentary that follows is my personal opinion, not the intent of the editing: what a hypocritical little prig you are."
Phoenix1269		#4331	[-]
Posts: 365 (12/12/08 10:13 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	getting real wrote: OTH asked: That was fun. Now who couldn't possibly won and who looks like they can't lose? Ah, OTH, the penultimate episode.... That would be Susie for the first part and Bob for the second part. Too bad Bob has been safely eliminated for some time now for being grossly ignored at key points in the game. However,Wallduck et al, he is one of the good guys. Which does fit the theme of the season. The contravention of which, as Pleasant Mama has pointed out, would be sheer lunacy on the part of the producers. Especially given the way the editors presented, nay, the way they have signed, sealed and delivered this particular season. I agree GR.... no matter how they slice it, the editing intent has been a set-up of good verses evil. And no one likes it if the "bad-guy" wins.... whoever he/she may be. Sugar has identified for us who the good guys are...Bob & Matty.... wouldn't it be interesting if she manages to swing it where Bob, Matty & Sugar are F3... (and Matty alluded to this as well) actually... I really have no idea who is going to win... i did not find the penultimate episode helpful at all.... Ken's doubt is what really happened...it is not manufactured, and it appear likely that Ken will get Immunity at some point, since Bob has made that infernal promise and says he's a man of his word. Matty & Bob both have manufactured doubt in that they both are carrying HUGE targets due to physical prowess, and it's been reaffirmed to us that neither has a good alliance, and are both at the whim of Sugar. Even if Matty makes it, we've been told TWICE that he isn't smart (Ken, and now Sugar)... doesn't look good for his chances. Bob is in a better position than Matty, having all this challenge guru stuff going on, but there is still the "Ken & Immunity Issue" that will surely come back to bite him in the ass. And something that i find a wee bit worrying is that bob has said 3 times now..... that he is the "luckiest man" AND it explains the whole onion alliance focus... this is after all how Bob gets to the finals. Susie.... <blink, blink> Sugar .... our Sweet Strategist.... yeah... i have zero doubt that she's making it to the end, and she is the one in control of who goes there with her. I can't wait for Sunday.... i feel like the big showdown between Matty and Kenny is only just beginning... as foreshadowed by Kenny picking Kelly over Bob at the very first swap. ETA: i agree with what cyclehausen, james barber and getting real have said... As someone pointed out (green coffee?) the theme was preset as this is an odd-numbered season.... So, what does this mean.... the editors pick a grandiose theme BEFORE filming... all the players know this theme and get to talk on it...obviously, since "eden" and "apple" and "choice" keep coming up from EVERYONE (and I would not be surprised to learn that the cameramen are asking them specific questions pertaining to theme...). The editors have a WIDE choice of theme-related matterial.... how can they NOT edit it good vs evil. From a story-perspective...it's a dream come true! It's EPIC! It's irresistable...even if the editors need to fudge it a bit... If Matty does win, this would be why his strategy comments and strategic moved were down-played... the editors needed to make sure he appears good and nice and innocent and deserving...a "good guy" (because basically, playing Survivor isn't really a "good" game).... and why the negative and arrogant and greedy moments of other players are played up. This would also explain why Susie has been so down-played.... if she is a chatterbox and unlikeable and aligned with Matty....they sure as heck don't want the viewer to know that....it would spoil the image that they are trying to create for the "good" winner. Editors - OTTPP5 for the season! Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 12/12/08 10:40 AM. Edited 1 times.
Phoenix1269		#4332	[-]
Posts: 366 (12/12/08 10:33 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	sorry, double posting... i thought i added to the previous post, but didn't fixed now Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 12/12/08 10:40 AM. Edited 1 times.
Cassidy666		#4333	[-]
Posts: 9258 (12/12/08 11:40 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Warrior wrote: "Sugar: MORP3 The commentary that follows is my personal opinion, not the intent of the editing: what a hypocritical little prig you are." Sadly I have to agree. Dreamz has nothing on Sugar. She makes him look rational and reasonable in comparison. I have never seen anyone flip on a dime the way she has and just twisted the knife for every single person who leaves. Zero chance of winning but she certainly makes the game completely unpredictable. Who knows how she's going to go one moment to the next? I doubt she does herself. I will flip out if Bob somehow manages to win this. His editing is nowhere near what you would expect of a winner and edgic would have to completely revise how winners are thought to be edited if he does win. Kenny is in for a rough ride. Honestly, who the hell refers to himself as a mastermind? That ego must come from his gaming background. Matty is a great guy but not much of a player if he says he's wanted to take Kenny and Crystal out before. So why the hell didn't he? It was only Sugar's randomness that gave him a chance. Edgic can't really say who wins this because no one really has an edit that stands out. Everyone has flaws in their edit and it makes things interesting.
AndreSurvivor		#4334	[-]
Posts: 267 (12/12/08 11:50 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	As for the Good vs. Evil thing, the penultimate episode is really the only episode that it has been raised explicitly. Otherwise, it has been mentioned by Jeff in interviews and nowhere else. I never saw it as this grand season-long theme--just that Good vs. Evil would enter the game at some point. I brought this up in the past few seasons, and I'll bring it up again: Do we know how the winner gets to where they are? We should know the winner's story. Even if it was by luck or due to some strategic errors on their part, I believe the editors have an interest in telling the winner's story. Our top two picks are Kenny (#1) and Matty (#2, mostly), and of those two, Kenny has had his entire story told. Now, has he played a flawless game? No. But every move he has made has been recorded, good or bad, and as a viewer, I know how he got to the end. And he is getting credit for the moves made, and once he is in hot water, it is someone else that pays the price. The previously are always: Will Kenny survive this? (The answer: Yes, yes, and once again and surprisingly, yes.) As for Matty, there have been key moments in the game where we had no idea where he stood. From all the insider videos, we know that depth of key relationships he had (such as with Susie, and with Ace/Jacquie/Sugar early on) have been completely ignored, all in favor of the moves Kenny and Crystal made on NuKota. Even in the penultimate episode, it was all about Sugar; heck, Bob and Matty seemed shocked Sugar was even flipping, and Sugar told Matty that she was doing the thinking. (IMO, when that weepy princess is thinking for you and they make a point of putting that in, you're in trouble!) Matty was a nice guy, I guess, but if he wins, will any of us really know how he got there, except for the fact that Sugar chose him? He really loves Gabon and Jaime: is that enough to be a winner? Kenny's doubt may have been from his own doing, but it usually is. At some point, the editor can get any character to say something egotistical or ill conceived, and put it on the air. My spoiler-free winner pick is still Kenny. And if I use the penultimate episode to change my mind, then that means the editors have done their job (like they did with Amanda two times in a row) and I haven't learned anything. Last Edited By: AndreSurvivor 12/12/08 11:57 AM. Edited 2 times.
AndreSurvivor		#4335	[-]
Posts: 268 (12/12/08 12:01 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	dcsurvivor wrote: Watching the faces of the jury as Sugar gave Matty the idol, they were very pleased. To me, this indicates that either Matty or Sugar's chances just went up. They might perceive this as a major strategic move on Sugar's part, or simply that they are happy that Matty is still in the game. After all, they know that Kenny, Crystal and Susie were responsible for all of them being on the jury. When Amanda played the idol in Micronesia, there were a bunch of smiles, but even those that were happy, like Jason and Eliza, still voted for Parvati. People just want to see shit go down. And at this point in the game, jury reactions can be edited in out of sequence or very particularly, sometimes to give positive or negative impressions to certain players.
even number		#4336	[-]
Posts: 98 (12/12/08 12:08 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	i really hope sugar wins. just because i would love to read the pages and pages of analysis of the 2 second clip of her watching a fish die in episode 1 that would follow.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#4337	[-]
Posts: 1461 (12/12/08 12:15 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I had an interesting thought about the vote. None of the idol moves really did anything. Crystal received four votes, and Ken having the idol instead of Bob or Sugar keeping the idol for herself might not have changed anything. Still, Bob clung to his immunity idol. Why? Because he doesn't trust Sugar or Matty or Susie any more than he trusts Ken. And with good reason! I'm sure Sugar would have stuck with him regardless this vote, but would Matty have? Would Susie have? And, having kept the idol, he still doesn't know where he stands with these people really, including Ken! As much as Sugar wants to believe this is an alliance of the "good guys", it really isn't. And Sugar gave Matty her hidden immunity idol. Why? Perhaps she doesn't trust Susie? Perhaps she doesn't trust Bob? Unlike with Bob's decision, we know it would have played out exactly the same if she had kept it. Heck, perhaps she doesn't even trust Matty! At the very least, by wearing the necklace and making a big deal about how this was the last chance to play it, she knew she was protected, and by giving it to Matty, he was protected no matter how anyone else voted.
Francois40		#4338	[-]
Posts: 2673 (12/12/08 1:46 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	As someone pointed out (green coffee?) the theme was preset as this is an odd-numbered season.... That was me, but thank you for confusing my incoherent babbling with someone as articulate as Green Coffee :) Still, Bob clung to his immunity idol. I presume you mean "...necklace." Anyway, what do we make of Jeff's comment "You can give the necklace to anyone, even Kenny."? I don't recall anyone ever specifically tagged like that in such a situation. RE: the possibility of Bob's win (I'm sorry, I just don't see it--I'd believe Randy and Crystal ran off to Sugar Shack and eloped before I'll believe that), I was about to say he's WAYYY too positive, but I was surprised to note how many previous winners had no negatives or Ms (Tina, Ethan, Danni, even Vecepia had only P and neutral tone, like Bob). But, I never saw the "halo" on them like there's been on Bob. He's a P distraction, doomed to go next or right after that.
urrout		#4339	[-]
Posts: 1787 (12/12/08 2:00 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Francois40 wrote: Anyway, what do we make of Jeff's comment "You can give the necklace to anyone, even Kenny."? I don't recall anyone ever specifically tagged like that in such a situation. Has he ever had a player finish his "1 in 5" chance to win either? That surprised me.
getting real		#4340	[-]
Posts: 1430 (12/12/08 3:15 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Phoenix, as usual this season, we are in agreement. Regarding Bob's promise to Kenny, he has already kept his word (the revised, 'negotiated' version of it) by considering whether Ken was in danger of going, deciding he wasn't and not giving him the necklace. In all likelihood, he'll finish 5th: Not 5th of Kota but 5th overall. Matty is still the wide-eyed innocent, filled with wonder. And, at the risk of driving some people to distraction, lol, remember that he is the anointed one, and: Suffer little children, .... for of such is the kingdom of heaven. As we've pointed out before. Devious strategy this season has been shown to be a bad thing this season. And doomed to fail ..... .... unless it's perpetrated by Sugar, the femme fatale whose, as someone has noted, was God-like this episode - the old testament kind: Judging, fearful, kind, yes - hypocritical at times, righteous and enhoying her dispensation of justice left, right and center. Matty is a New Testament kinda guy. Survivor (Andre & DC), the jury's reaction was more Corinne's reaction. She was mostly reacting with satisfaction at the person she thought betrayed the her by voting for her instead of Matty last episode. However, Crystal will now set the record straight in Ponderosa. By the way, is anyone looking forward to seeing Crystal's interactions at Ponderosa with the Kota 4?

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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