S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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RobVanStratus		#2941	[-]
Posts: 7202 (11/16/08 11:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Okay all you little mindless fucks that LOVE spoiled warrior as your Edgic idiotic leader, I didn't bring up this debacle again. Oo brought up my issues with warrior and I defended myself for about the MILLIONTH time that warrior was spoiled and got pissed I nailed him for the spoilers that he wanted to be kept out of Edgic. And I've posted several comments regarding ratings over the last few episodes and who has a winning edit, so I have every right to be in this thread. I'm trying to figure out for myself how you all work Edgic when its clearly failed this season and how its acceptable to look back at the first half of the season and revise how you placed people in the winner rankings. Stick with what you have, going back to revise your mistakes is just going to fuck you up and probably lead you off the path of finding the winner.
Brazil Luvs Ami		#2942	[-]
Posts: 143 (11/17/08 12:07 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	James Barber wrote: So, what do you do as an editor, if Kenny did indeed win? You validate Kenny's reasoning by agreeing with his perspective in the recap at the start of the episode, thereby preparing the audience to accept his (flawed) point of view. As I say, I'm not a Kenny apologist especially. I'm sure OTH will provide more comrehensive reasons for regarding him as the frontrunner. However, I don't think this past episode hurt his chances at all. As has been pointed out (sorry, I can't remember who, please identify yourself), the significance of the boat scene is that he was shown to overcome his shortcomings, moreso than the shortcomings themselves. I would say they could have shown more of Charlie as some kind of a schemer, to give more shadings to Ken's decision, so that viewers could say the decision made sense even if they didn't agree with Ken's reason. Instead, we barely saw Charlie, and the editors made sure we knew Ken's decision had nothing to do with strategy. Just as they made sure we saw Sugar feel betrayed and angry over Ken getting her to vote for Ace, and we saw Crystal doing the work to get rid of Marcus. When it comes to the important decisions, they either don't show Ken's involvement, or they show his involvement as being flawed. Even the boat scene was potentially flawed, because one could say it was a metaphor for him being so involved with himself and his own game that he's out to sea with the larger picture. Not only that what you have said James Barber, but also they showed Charlie worried (in one confessional) because now, without Marcus, he would have to think in whom he should boot, while before, Marcus always made this decision for him...
getting real		#2943	[-]
Posts: 1354 (11/17/08 12:10 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OnlyTheHunter wrote: cyclehausen said Quick question - I know edgically it's implausible, but IF Crystal had won (and she would be a female winner like no other), what kind of an edit would they have crafted for her? Well, in one thought, she would get what Todd got. It's okay to be in your face. But we'd get more of her reasoning behind it, so it's not left up in the air what to think, or to make her seem going off half-cocked. It's not what they've shown, it was the lack of framing it as a character arc. Where Kenny became a man, Sugar is figuring things out, Crystal has been stagnant. The OTT edit I've seen is one issue. The lack of her self awareness is also bad. Michael OTH, in addition to the above, you'd better add leaving out Crystal's sad sand shoe shuffle strife out of Episode 1. FLF has mandated that no explanation of why Crystal lost would be complete without it. Loved your BCS college analogy. Wonder how Edgic would fare if it were done solely by computers?
theskoffingskeptic		#2944	[-]
Posts: 21 (11/17/08 12:27 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Brazil Luvs Ami wrote: James Barber wrote: I would say they could have shown more of Charlie as some kind of a schemer, to give more shadings to Ken's decision, so that viewers could say the decision made sense even if they didn't agree with Ken's reason. Instead, we barely saw Charlie, and the editors made sure we knew Ken's decision had nothing to do with strategy. Just as they made sure we saw Sugar feel betrayed and angry over Ken getting her to vote for Ace, and we saw Crystal doing the work to get rid of Marcus. When it comes to the important decisions, they either don't show Ken's involvement, or they show his involvement as being flawed. Even the boat scene was potentially flawed, because one could say it was a metaphor for him being so involved with himself and his own game that he's out to sea with the larger picture. Not only that what you have said James Barber, but also they showed Charlie worried (in one confessional) because now, without Marcus, he would have to think in whom he should boot, while before, Marcus always made this decision for him... You almost have to wonder whether that was a slip-of-the-tongue comment on Charlie's part, which he would later regret when he watched the show. Earlier eps ( the Dan vs. Susie vote in ep7 ) and deleted scenes on CBS.com ( the strategy session during nunuFang's reward in ep9 ) adduce for both Charlie and Corinne being capable, independent strategists. All the more reason to assume the edit is shading Kenny negatively for executing Charlie.
Green Coffee		#2945	[-]
Posts: 97 (11/17/08 12:31 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I am absolutely flabbergasted by two things going on right now: 1) Corrine winner picks Holy shit, guys and gals. I cannot even fathom a reason why she is not 100% eliminated at this point. Even worse, I can't see why she is anyone's winner pick. Looking at the guidelines, I can't see it (INV=Death in all but one case EVER). Looking at it logically, I can't see it (Pagonging of NuKota is looking plausible). Looking at historically similar edits, I can't see it (Jerri and just about every other "Mean and Nasty Female Schemer" that has lost). Looking at the logic of her edit, I can't see it (Given that Corrine won, why would they edit her in an overwhelmingly negative light that highlights her strategic ineptitude and lack of social skills?). 2) The amount of backpedaling going on Come on, Edgic. Let's not split hairs here. We all got totally fooled by Marcus and he was the overwhelming and dominant pick for the majority of the season (starting with episode one). Nearly every poster was labeling him the clear pick of Edgic. Yes, there were some people who were saying that Ken and Matty were not 100% eliminated, but even they acknowledged the strength of Marcus's edit. However, just because 17/18 people were not eliminated does not mean that a pick was not made. When you look back and read what has gone on in this thread, the unbending support for Marcus is undeniable. He was Edgic's pick up until the final vote that booted him was read. So what would we have said about the success of Edgic if Marcus had gone on to win? Would we have said "Well we thought he was winning, but because Matty and Ken got officially eliminated by Edgic so late, it's only a partial victory. Also, because not 100% of people had Marcus as their winner by the merge, we still didn't quite get it right." Of course not! Edgic would have RIGHTFULLY claimed victory for having nailed the winner from episode one. I can't imagine any reason to deny this, because we all know it's true (as it should be). Therefore, where's the logic in denying ownership now that it did not work out that way? If the early and near-unanimous pick goes on to win, it's considered a homerun. If they lose in mid-swing, shouldn't it be seen as a strikeout? There's no logical support for this backpeddling argument. The way it works, Edgic cannot fail. If we're right, Edgic is brilliant. If we're wrong, well we never really picked that person anyway. When Marcus was eliminated and the shower of haters arrived, many people did it right: "Hey we got it wrong, but we're happy about it. Edgic isn't perfect and this is a valuable experience. Laugh all you want, but it doesn't upset us!" However, now there are some people who are saying "Well there wasn't a merge yet TECHNICALLY so TECHNICALLY we didn't get it wrong yet! Ken is the merge pick!" Ok, fine. We'll go down that road. Say there is a twist in a future season and the official merge occurs at the final 4. Are you suggesting to me that if Edgic can get it right when there are 5 people left, it is "successful?" Take it the other way. Say a season occurs where they merge immediately. To "succeed," should Edgic be expected to have it figured out after the first episode, then? Say we reverse the order of Marcus/Charlie being booted. Marcus still loses, but does so one episode later. Does Edgic as a whole fail THEN? What's the big difference? After Marcus's boot episode, the only reason he was eliminated was that he was voted out - nothing else about that episode would have eliminated him or made Ken/Matty a frontrunner above him. Therefore, the only reason Edgic "got it right by the merge" was that an incorrect pick was eliminated in time to change the pick immediately before the "deadline." In a game where the merge can (and does) come at WIDELY variable times, using it as an absolute measurement of success is problematic. I hope these examples demonstrate this. I'm not trying to be one of the "haha you got it wrong" haters, here. Hell, I know that what I'm saying doesn't even apply to everyone here. I'm just saying that Edgic's original response to the Marcus boot was the right one. This revisionism and backpeddling some people are doing only serves to show haters that people here DO care if they got it right or not and ARE upset when people call them out on it. Edgic is better served by openly admitting that picking Marcus was a mistake and that this season was not, as a whole, successful. The true success in this season should come from examining Marcus's edit for ways to prevent such a blunder from ever happening again. Rewriting history to suggest that Ken/Matty were right up there with Marcus all along does not serve improvements to Edgic. So in my opinion, arguing that Edgic was successful this season on what is essentially a technicality based in the use of an arbitrary and flawed criteria for success only serves to preserve our own egos (hey, I thought he won, too). The question, then, is: Why do we need to do that? Thanks for reading. Looking forward to thoughts on this issue.
OnlyTheHunter		#2946	[-]
Posts: 1841 (11/17/08 12:38 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	RVS said I'm trying to figure out for myself how you all work Edgic when its clearly failed this season I tried explaining this just tonight. Don't care about the Warrior stuff, whatever. But Edgic being numbers didn't fail. I, for one, looked at who could fit, as more than one player can, and picked the wrong one. Edgic cannot pin down one person necessarily. If you really are trying to figure it out, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt this time, then you need to figure that out. One last time - Edgic has certain guidelines. Many if not most players, by the merge, are ruled out as a possibility to win, by comparing them against the guidelines. That leaves some players, often 2 or 3, that cannot be eliminated strictly by the guidelines. Once I process that information, I have to decide who is the best guess. And that's all it is, a guess. An educated, experienced guess after a while, but a guess. If there's only one viable player, per the guidelines, and that player doesn't win, Edgic failed. But it's rarely (ever anyone?) that simple. This season, Edgic narrowed out some players quickly, Sugar and Susie. It could not knock out Kenny or Matty simply by the guidelines. In comparison to Marcus, who also fit them, I as one person saw Marcus better in comparison, but Edgic didn't eliminate Kenny or Matty. So where's the failure part? That I picked the wrong one? As I said earlier, that's not Edgic failing, that's me making a wrong educated guess. If Susie wins, failure big time. But if ya look at Kenny and you look at how Edgic rated him, or substitute Matty, how would Edgic have failed? When you look into it you'll see the difference. And I will give you the benefit you will. Michael
OnlyTheHunter		#2947	[-]
Posts: 1842 (11/17/08 12:50 AM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	gr said Loved your BCS college analogy. Wonder how Edgic would fare if it were done solely by computers? It'd be the same as now, but with less screencaps. GCoffee said In a game where the merge can (and does) come at WIDELY variable times, using it as an absolute measurement of success is problematic. I hope these examples demonstrate this. Well, for myself only, I tried doing what pastordice did, pick the winner by episode 6, as episode 7 was the merge episode from the traditional, 16 player seasons. I think most actually hold to that. As for the rest, I hope I gave you some explanation. I'm not backpedaling. However, the numbers were there and I quit looking at them. Where I said during China that I didn't believe Amanda or Peih-Gee was the winner but I technically couldn't eliminate them, that applies here. Except then I saw Todd and here I picked a decoy. The same way Edgic tried to show three were viable then, it said the same thing now. Except that in lieu of a three way debate, most centered on the same one person. The wrong one. Throw the baby with the bathwater, etc.? I won't. But good comments to discuss, and I know you aren't just a drive by hater, GC. You know that. Michael
fat little fingers		#2948	[-]
Posts: 5728 (11/17/08 12:55 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	To the posters who want to either tease, trash, or "help improve" Edgic: I really am a bit bored by the "Edgic failed" posts by this point. I often miss picking the winner and yet the Edgic analysis is still there to use. So, you can say flf failed to use edgic correctly, but the guidelines are still functional. If you want to start another spec thread and come at spec some other way, then please go for it. It's a great big Forum out there just waiting for someone to post outside of little ol Edgic. If you're in here for the audience, then that is pretty sad, isn't it? See if you can get posters to discuss new ideas in a non-Edgic thread. There's certainly other ways to come at deciphering the winner.
theskoffingskeptic		#2949	[-]
Posts: 22 (11/17/08 12:57 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Green Coffee wrote: I am absolutely flabbergasted by two things going on right now: 1) Corrine winner picks Holy shit, guys and gals. I cannot even fathom a reason why she is not 100% eliminated at this point. Even worse, I can't see why she is anyone's winner pick. Looking at the guidelines, I can't see it (INV=Death in all but one case EVER). Looking at it logically, I can't see it (Pagonging of NuKota is looking plausible). Looking at historically similar edits, I can't see it (Jerri and just about every other "Mean and Nasty Female Schemer" that has lost). Looking at the logic of her edit, I can't see it (Given that Corrine won, why would they edit her in an overwhelmingly negative light that highlights her strategic ineptitude and lack of social skills?). [etc.] GC, I hear your well-reasoned observations and offer you one in return. 1. I think many Corinne advocates ( myself included ) believe she will make the final 3, but lose the game. It's my impression that this is often lost in the back and forth between posters though. Also, and I don't mean this sarcastically, but do you have a single example of Corinne's "strategic ineptitude"? ( As a flaw independent from her "lack of social skills". )
getting real		#2950	[-]
Posts: 1355 (11/17/08 1:14 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Green Coffee said: So in my opinion, arguing that Edgic was successful this season on what is essentially a technicality based in the use of an arbitrary and flawed criteria for success only serves to preserve our own egos (hey, I thought he won, too). The question, then, is: Why do we need to do that? GC, as one of the few who posted doubts on a Marcus win (based on Probst's disdainful treatment of those who eschewed teamwork in favor of selfishness in Episode 1), I don't have to preserve my own ego. So I can say in all honesty that I don't believe that any individual has 'failed' this season for picking Marcus. Much less so Edgic as a whole. Firstly, for the technical reasons that a merge pick has always been, in my experience, the forum's collective pick. I take your points about a merge theoretically occurring very late but this hasn't been a factor in 17 seasons so we can discount the possibility until we actually need to consider it. Secondly, because one of most important Edgic functions, as I see it, is to determine who can't win, not having one's first choice win is not such a big deal provided none of the Edgic impossibilities ends up as the winner. Others may see this differently. That last sentence segues nicely to my third point. As satisfying as it is to feel part of a community that has makes a collective choice, I don't think the objective is to get everyone to conform to exactly the same viewpoints. As Cl says, editing and its interpretation is more of an art than a science. Consequently, the process can't help but be subjective. My aim is to put ideas out there, cast an eye over those of others and have some fun bantering. If the majority of Edgic gets it right, well and good but this has not much to do with me as an individual. That's why I was pretty sure the sun would come up last season when the entire forum except me picked Paravati to win. There are others who see it differently and think the season has been a waste if Marcus (or any Marcus) for that matter doesn't win. Fine, but I sincerely hope that believing that to be the case doesn't detract from your enjoyment. Because it's been a ripper of a season. Last Edited By: getting real 11/17/08 1:17 AM. Edited 1 times.
7Sages		#2951	[-]
Posts: 163 (11/17/08 1:35 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Phoenix1269 wrote: Edgic Losers Percentage of possible loser votes 94.12% - Susie Smith 82.35% - Bob Crowley 70.59% - Corinne Kaplan 64.71% - Crystal Cox 64.71% - Sugar Kiper 64.71% - Randy Bailey 5.88% - Ken Hoang 5.88% - Matty Whitmore Edgic Winners Percentage of winner votes received 52.94% - Ken Hoang 23.53% - Matty Whitmore 17.65% - Corinne Kaplan 0.00% - Bob Crowley 0.00% - Crystal Cox 0.00% - Sugar Kiper 0.00% - Randy Bailey 0.00% - Susie Smith Corinne?! If anything I would think the main people who could be winners are Matty, Ken, Randy, or Crystal
ncassaro		#2952	[-]
Posts: 281 (11/17/08 1:48 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: To the posters who want to either tease, trash, or "help improve" Edgic: I really am a bit bored by the "Edgic failed" posts by this point. I often miss picking the winner and yet the Edgic analysis is still there to use. So, you can say flf failed to use edgic correctly, but the guidelines are still functional. If you want to start another spec thread and come at spec some other way, then please go for it. It's a great big Forum out there just waiting for someone to post outside of little ol Edgic. Nobody wants that though! Don't take it personally when people say that edgic failed this year... If lessons aren't learned it will happen again and again. Green Coffee's post was right on the money and it's exactly what I've been trying to say (though much more eloquent.) I feel like people are a bit threatened by my posts when I'm really not trying to have that tone. I'm just saying we can't act like we were right all along. We were terribly wrong. It's life, it happens. The only way is to move on and be better in the future.
getting real		#2953	[-]
Posts: 1356 (11/17/08 2:09 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OK, enough recriminations. How about a fun theory on perhaps the most befuddling edit of the season: Sugar. The theory is that Sugar is being edited as a femme fatale with positive overtones, a kind of positive-tending Natalie. Consider these facts: She has voted out every man booted so far, with the two exceptions listed below. She has seen the downfall of every man who pretended to act as her protector/friend: Ace, of course, but also Marcus (the first exception to 1) who gave her immunity and Charlie ("Honestly, will you trust me... Kota 4 to the end"). I could be wrong but, I think even GC referred to himself as a pimp at one point. Interestingly, she has been shown to shed t.ears or to be visibly upset following the ousters of each of these victims: Ace when when Matty told her about Kenny's lie; Marcus pre-reward challenge; Charlie & GC at Tribal Council. Having dispatched her would-be benefactors in such ruthless fashion, imagine what is in store for those males who are openly hostile to her. Dan (the second exception to 1) was the first to offend her ("It's comedy not strategy" when sending her to EI) and she oversaw his departure by proxy. Imagine what's in store for Ken & Matty, let alone Randy. So this may be Sugar's edit. A Black Widow who giggles and cries her way through her victims. She may not floss her teeth with their arteries but she's just as deadly!
chad6		#2954	[-]
Posts: 1891 (11/17/08 3:26 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: To the posters who want to either tease, trash, or "help improve" Edgic: I really am a bit bored by the "Edgic failed" posts by this point. I often miss picking the winner and yet the Edgic analysis is still there to use. So, you can say flf failed to use edgic correctly, but the guidelines are still functional. If you want to start another spec thread and come at spec some other way, then please go for it. It's a great big Forum out there just waiting for someone to post outside of little ol Edgic. If you're in here for the audience, then that is pretty sad, isn't it? See if you can get posters to discuss new ideas in a non-Edgic thread. There's certainly other ways to come at deciphering the winner. Thank you for so much for saying this. I'm not even a edgic person (what are you guys called anyways?), but I love to hear what you guys say about editing. If you have a problem with edgic, then why in the world do you even come in here? Let the people that like to do edgic do it, and stfu already.
Warrior		#2955	[-]
Posts: 2745 (11/17/08 5:30 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Bob Crowley INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (16.7%), MOR (50%), OTT (33.3%) Corinne Kaplan INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (22.2%), MOR (50%), OTT (27.8%) Crystal Cox INV (0%), UTR (16.7%), CP (0%), MOR (38.9%), OTT (44.4%)
OZ Keeper		#2956	[-]
Posts: 93 (11/17/08 5:41 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	chad6 wrote: I'm not even a edgic person (what are you guys called anyways?) Edgicians.
AndreSurvivor		#2957	[-]
Posts: 232 (11/17/08 8:30 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Warrior wrote: Bob Crowley INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (16.7%), MOR (50%), OTT (33.3%) Corinne Kaplan INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (22.2%), MOR (50%), OTT (27.8%) Crystal Cox INV (0%), UTR (16.7%), CP (0%), MOR (38.9%), OTT (44.4%) Bob is MOR.... is in a P character and has been OTT in the past, but this episode he didn't have a lot that was OTT. In fact, CP wouldn't have been bad. But I'd pick MOR; he had a balanced edit, expalining how he was doomed if he couldn't get the idol or if there wasn't a merge. He even made a neato idol. MOR more than OTT. He had presence. Corinne would be MOR more than OTT. She was very N, except for holding the child's hand, which was sadly counted by her saying it was someone she would never do. She ripped Suagr to shreds. N! Crystal didn't have a lot to do, except for blowup at TC. This one's tough. I'd pick MOR, with a side of M or N, given the remaining votes were for UTR.
Warrior		#2958	[-]
Posts: 2746 (11/17/08 8:41 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	AndreSurvivor wrote: Warrior wrote: Bob Crowley INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (16.7%), MOR (50%), OTT (33.3%) Corinne Kaplan INV (0%), UTR (0%), CP (22.2%), MOR (50%), OTT (27.8%) Crystal Cox INV (0%), UTR (16.7%), CP (0%), MOR (38.9%), OTT (44.4%) Bob is MOR.... is in a P character and has been OTT in the past, but this episode he didn't have a lot that was OTT. In fact, CP wouldn't have been bad. But I'd pick MOR; he had a balanced edit, expalining how he was doomed if he couldn't get the idol or if there wasn't a merge. He even made a neato idol. MOR more than OTT. He had presence. Corinne would be MOR more than OTT. She was very N, except for holding the child's hand, which was sadly counted by her saying it was someone she would never do. She ripped Suagr to shreds. N! Crystal didn't have a lot to do, except for blowup at TC. This one's tough. I'd pick MOR, with a side of M or N, given the remaining votes were for UTR. I agree...
Phoenix1269		#2959	[-]
Posts: 299 (11/17/08 9:44 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	ncassaro wrote: fat little fingers wrote: To the posters who want to either tease, trash, or "help improve" Edgic: I really am a bit bored by the "Edgic failed" posts by this point. I often miss picking the winner and yet the Edgic analysis is still there to use. So, you can say flf failed to use edgic correctly, but the guidelines are still functional. If you want to start another spec thread and come at spec some other way, then please go for it. It's a great big Forum out there just waiting for someone to post outside of little ol Edgic. Nobody wants that though! Don't take it personally when people say that edgic failed this year... If lessons aren't learned it will happen again and again. Green Coffee's post was right on the money and it's exactly what I've been trying to say (though much more eloquent.) I feel like people are a bit threatened by my posts when I'm really not trying to have that tone. I'm just saying we can't act like we were right all along. We were terribly wrong. It's life, it happens. The only way is to move on and be better in the future. ncass... please do not include me in your all encompassing "nobody"... I am not so arrogant as to assume that i could predict the opinions of others... i know that i cannot, and i've learned that it is far wiser to express only my own opinion and to let others speak for themselves.... (and redwing actually reminded me of this very recently, and i extend apologies to him for offending him.) The following IS MY OPINION ONLY. Others may choose to agree or disagree.... but this is the last and only time i will address this matter UNTIL THE SEASON IS OVER. In this moment... I don't care about revising the guidelines RIGHT NOW. We are just over half way through the season, and we have been keeping stats based on a certain set of guidelines. To change those guidelines and definitions NOW will actually MAKE IT HARDER to figure out what went awry. When the season is FINISHED, then the idea of re-evaluating any guidelines, and looking at WHY Marcus's winning decoy edit was so successful can (and most likely) will happen. I am not opposed to looking back... BUT ONLY WHEN WE HAVE ALL OF THE INFORMATION AT OUR DISPOSAL. Hindsight is 20/20 WHEN you have ALL of the information. We DON'T have all the infomration....we still have 4 or 5 episodes to go. Once we know the outcome, we can look back and see where we - collectively and as individuals - went wrong. I know for me personally.... I was determined NOT to ignore the all-important 1st episode... and what did i do.... i took the sum of E1 & E2 and formed my opinion, instead of seeing the 2 episodes as separate entities. At the end of E2...Marcus looked FAB...and he was my number 1 pick. That doesn't mean i discounted everyone else (with the exception of Kelly, Susie & Paloma) It just means i picked who i thought was best. So...ncass... I would appreciate it if you would please stop this incessant brow-beating of CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE. Change when neccessary is a good thing. Change just for the sake of change is craziness... Until the season is over, we won't know which is which. Keep a list, write down your ideas, and do your own analysis if you wish, and when the season is over, bring it up then. thank you. Last Edited By: Phoenix1269 11/17/08 9:48 AM. Edited 1 times.
AllMenAreIslands		#2960	[-]
Posts: 25721 (11/17/08 10:09 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well said, Phoenix.

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S-17 Edgic (editing and logic) Gabon

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