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All-Star Survivor: Hawaii - post game interviews are being posted.

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lalalakers		#1181	[-]
Posts: 351 (08/22/08 1:15 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	SenseiKreese wrote: I was going to ask the same question Yankees asked, but it seems like you cheated a bit to me. (and of course, this is tongue in cheek, because it's your story, but still). You picked a random immunity winner, and it was Alicia. So it seems to me that, if everyone went all out, Alicia would win. I also have no problem with the fact that she could decide to give up and hand immunity to Gretchen - IF, of course, Gretchen was the second last person standing. Of course, there's no guarantee that she would (as Vecepia could have very well been that person). In keeping with your random-selection of immunity winner process, it seemed only "fair" to me (and to your selection process) that you drew a second time to see who would be hanging there second last. Because, if it wasn't Gretchen, then your situation wouldn't have been feasible. Yeah I knew someone would bring this up. Fine, just pretend that Alicia won immunity and then gave it to Gretchen. That was the real storyline behind this episode. I only wrote it the other way around because I thought it would be more memorable. I just had this idea of Gretchen hanging on for dear life and begging for help, and then Alicia saved her. Whether it fit my immunity roll or not is irrelevant. It still had the same effect as if I had written it the other way around. In 12 months, "the Gretchen begging on the rings" scene is one of those scenes that most readers of Hawaii are going to remember. And really, that's all that I care about. I like the big action drama scenes. In my mind, how I got to the actual outcome of this episode is pretty much irrelevant. I mean, I did what the random drawing told me to do. Same outcome, different path. If Alicia HADN'T won immunity, Gretchen would have been toast. And I wouldn't have had a problem with that. Look at it this way. If I did feel guilty about my immunity selection this episode, I wouldn't have mentioned it in my notes. You never would have even known about it. Well, Yankees did ask, and i was going to =P I understand your answer and all, but if Alicia blatantly gave Gretchen immunity, then that gives John a lot more reason to give a big "screw you" to Alicia, as opposed to your scenario, where John has no definitive excuse to vote her out. And as you said, giving away immunity wasn't really an option until Amazon, I think.
SenseiKreese		#1182	[-]
Posts: 2448 (08/22/08 1:19 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	See, according to my research I think you could give it away as far back as Marquesas. So I'm pretty sure that was allowed back then. Like I said, the only reason I didn't use that particular method of immunity transfer is because I wasn't sure about this. And like I mentioned in my notes (thanks Kona!), when you don't know something for sure, don't just make it up. Somebody will always call bullshit on you. By the way, thanks for all the comments everyone!
lalalakers		#1183	[-]
Posts: 352 (08/22/08 1:38 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I think you're right. I did a little searching, and found an article written during the Amazon season, where the author said the ability to transfer immunity "returned", and wrote that in marquesas, Kathy should've blackmailed for the transfer of immunity. But again, Alicia actually transferring immunity would've been completely different, IMO.
SenseiKreese		#1184	[-]
Posts: 2449 (08/22/08 2:13 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeah but it was more fun this way. :)
lalalakers		#1185	[-]
Posts: 353 (08/22/08 2:22 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	waitwaitwait... it's done? the blog says you're done.. meaning the finale's already done... and.... how frickin' soon are we getting the finale???? =P
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1186	[-]
Posts: 1282 (08/22/08 7:48 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	SenseiKreese wrote: The scene that annoys me the most is Gretchen begging Tina to promise to vote for her. This strikes me as wrong on almost every level. You know, I thought about this after you wrote it, because that was one of the scenes I was most proud of in this episode. That was one of the last ones I thought people would ever complain about. I thought it was the perfect ending to the Gretchen vs. Tina storyline. I mean, come on. "You already have your win, now give me mine." That's one of my favorite sentences in the entire story. The reason that conversation is there is two-fold. First off, I really had nothing for Tina and Gretchen to talk about. Once Gretchen told her it was a little late to be making a F2 deal, that was effectively the end of the scene. And I don't know. It just felt choppy. It felt like there was something more that needed to be added to the scene, to make it sound like it meant something to the story. I hadn't really intended for Gretchen to ask Tina for this favor, it just grew out of the natural extention of "What would they talk about at this point?" And once I realized it would be a nice scene if Gretchen asked Tina to "pass the torch", if you will, I knew I had to use it. Is it completely in both of their characters to talk about this? I don't know. I just saw it as a mental image in my head that I wanted to use. I knew that it would be the perfect bookend to the Gretchen vs. Tina storyline, and I thought it would be a conversation that a lot of people would be talking about the next day. I really had no idea that anyone would actually have a problem with it. It seemed like a scene that just needed to be there. They had to have some closure to their contentious relationship. Oh yeah, and what was the second reason that scene was there? Easy. I wanted Tina to leave the game as a good guy. That scene wasn't there for Gretchen's character development, it was there for Tina's. I didn't want anyone to have anything bad to say about her when she left the game. She is one of my all time favorite Survivor players, and I wanted to make sure she went out as a good guy. That's why that scene is there. And Tina would never commit to a promise like that. She never commits to anything unless there is something in it for her. She'd surely find it rather distasteful that Gretchen even asked. How can you say that there is nothing in it for Tina? If Gretchen wins the game, and Tina's vote was the one that cinched it, of COURSE there was something in it for Tina. She's all about the P.R. At the reunion show, she gets to be the hero who won it for "the good guy." For a player like Tina, I would imagine that reward is about as valuable as you can possibly get. Of course she is getting something out of it. Perhaps, but that option is still available to her when she's on the jury. She gains nothing from promising it now. Let Gretchen sweat over it a bit - for Tina it would be a passive strike back for refusing to save her. In the actual show, such a comment would never be shown (which Tina would know) unless it could later be put into doubt, and Gretchen doesn't need jury doubt anyway. I don't really feel like Tina needed an extra "good guy" boost anyway. Her editing has been favorable throughout. After Gretchen wins immunity, the sympathy of the audience already lies with Tina over Alicia. She doesn't need to be tied to Gretchen to be the "good guy". And I'm a bit confused about your statement that the relationship between Gretchen and Tina was contentious. I don't see that at all. They targeted each other, but it was always in the context of the game with no hard feelings. They each have a far more contentious relationship with others in the game, particularly Alicia.
colleenlover		#1187	[-]
Posts: 8384 (08/22/08 8:05 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Giving away immunity started in Marquesas -that was the new twist. We discussed it back in 2002 with this story.
colleenlover		#1188	[-]
Posts: 8385 (08/22/08 8:24 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't quite get your rationale about not taking it day by day because it could bite you in the ass. Well, duh -that's reality television. If you want to write about a Survivor fanfic where it goes all cool and topsy turvy like a movie than that's different- and frankly, write a movie or book instead. I think you're confusing why people were disappointed with Alicia winning in the end the last time. For me, it had nothing to do with Alicia winning. Who really cares who wins anyway-it's all a character study to observe. It was that all the characters were thrown away and no real fight (except from Alicia) was put into play. So it was more like we were cheated of the actual fight/duke out/showdown. All the episodes proceeding it were pretty good, the set-up great -and then BAM Day 37 and "Everyone was too tired to talk strategy..." ????!!
yankees42789		#1189	[-]
Posts: 1474 (08/22/08 10:42 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I have to second that the final Tina/Gretchen scene at the end was by far my least favorite one in the episode. From a thematic point of view, it's fitting to show that the episode took a complete twist where the situation with the characters is fully reversed and the begger becomes the one who is getting their butt kissed. But I can't help but read it as a little demeaning to Tina. Tina comes across as completely pathetic and instead of letting her down gently like Tina did to Gretchen the entire episode, Gretchen is more blunt, basically saying "you didn't help me, why the hell should I help you?" which is something that Tina would've known all along anyway. I think it's just an injustice to Tina's character for her final act to be hopelessly begging followed by being brutally turned away. That's the problem with the scene. And by the way, when I wrote that I thought this was the Gretchen show, I wasn't complaining. I'm just noting that she is by far the biggest storyline at this point and that all the promotion that CBS would have in the days leading up to the finale is "Gretchen is the underdog. Will she win it again or won't she" instead of "Will the lone male from the Final 7 on win" or "Will Vecepia be able to pull it of again?" or any other storyline. While those may be equally compelling, they are second billing to a large extent (and especially would be to a dumb TV audience) Last Edited By: yankees42789 08/22/08 10:45 AM. Edited 1 times.
SenseiKreese		#1190	[-]
Posts: 2450 (08/22/08 10:56 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Okay point noted about the Tina/Gretchen scene. I never looked at it that way, but I suppose it is possible. Just remember though, Tina IS my favorite female player ever. There's no way I would have demeaned her on purpose.
SenseiKreese		#1191	[-]
Posts: 2451 (08/22/08 3:48 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The blog says I'm done, but I'm not. The finale will be up soon. :)
JFRX		#1192	[-]
Posts: 66 (08/23/08 1:39 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hi Sensei, even though I never read the original story, I've been keeping up with the re-write for a while now and I'm loving every bit of it. Usually I don't have too much to say about it that hasn't already been fleshed out by all the other posters in this thread, but I thought I'd just share my speculation going into the finale. It seems that the finale will probably revolve around who wins immunity. Assuming that the immunity pick is completely random, there is a three in four chance that Gretchen will be going home at four. Think about it- at the moment, no other player can really beat Gretchen in the final two. Alicia feels that her best chance is against John, and so does Vee. John is stuck with Alicia for now but no matter who he really thinks he has a better shot against, it certainly isn't Gretchen. All the other characters view her as an immunity threat, and there is no way they would let her get to the final three unless they absolutely had to. They also want to avoid an all out-purple-rock scenario if possible (see below). So if Gretchen loses immunity (3/4 chance), Gretchen is probablt going home. Simple as that. Going with the more likely option, that Gretchen is out at four, that leaves a final three of Vee, John and Alicia. At this point John is pretty much in the final two no matter what happens. However, if he wins immunity he would be forced to betray one of his alliances- if he votes out Alicia, she will turn the jury against him, and if he votes out Vee, Alicia would probably win anayway (with probable votes from Colleen, Kathy, Rob and Gretchen at the very least). At this point, John's best chance is to throw immunity and let one of the other two win it and take him to the finals. That way, he has one less enemy on the jury, and a potential shot against previous-winner Vecepia without having betrayed Alicia and therefore without an anti-John jury. So depending on who wins the final immunity, the final two would either be John/Alicia (if Alicia wins) or John/Vecepia (If Vecepia or John wins the pick, assuming that picking John will lead to whatever is in John's best interests - a Vecepia win - and not necessarily to him winning the challenge). There is therefore a (1/3 X 3/4 = 1/4) chance of Alicia winning against John, and a (2/3 X 3/4 = 1/2) chance of a John/Vee showdown (which I won't even try to pick as it could conceivably go either way). However, If Gretchen wins immunity at the final four (1/4 chance), things will get ugly, as either John, Vee or Alicia will be going home. Vee and Alicia, who both want to go up against John in the end, would have to vote for each other, seemingly forcing John to choose sides once again. However the choice would probably be out of his hands because Gretchen would vote for Vee (It seems that Gretchen wants to face Alicia in the end for two reasons- it would ensure that a more deserving (read: not Ahi) player won, and it would honour her final two deal as Gretchen seems unlikely to renege on her word). John would then need to choose between voting Vee out and forcing a tie by voting Alicia. He would probably rather vote out Vee than force the tie (which would either result in himself drawing the purple rock, Alicia being betrayed by him and turning the jury against him, or Vee going home anyway because of the rock). So if Gretchen won immunity at four, Vee would go home, and the final three would be Gretchen, John and Alicia. Again, Gretchen would need to win immunity to make it to the finals as neither of the others would be stupid enough to take her. So there is a (1/4 X 1/3 = 1/12) chance of Gretchen winning and taking Alicia to lose in the finals. There is also a (1/4 X 2/3 = 1/6) chance of a John/Alicia final two that would probably result in Alicia winning (as above). So in summary, with a random immunity chooser, Gretchen's chances of winning are pretty slim as she would need to win both immunities (a 1 in 12 chance) make it to the end, where she would take Alicia. Alicia's chances are 5 in 12, probably against John (1/6 + 1/4). And the chances of a John/Vecepia final two are 1 in 2, where both have an approximately equal chance at winning (Kathy and Alicia would probably vote John, Tina would probably vote Vee, but Frank, Rob, Colleen and Gretchen could all vote for either at this point so this one is up in the air). Based on the above, the odds would be: Gretchen - 11:1 Alicia - 7:5 John- 3:1 Vee- 3:1
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1193	[-]
Posts: 1283 (08/23/08 6:09 AM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Decent speculation, but the play isn't static. Vee, for instance, isn't going to wait for Gretchen to win immunity to insure herself against the possibility. She'll go to Gretchen and try to expose Alicia and cut her out. I don't think Gretchen considers Alicia much more worthy than the Ahis at this point and is only bound to Alicia by the supposed F2 agreement, which is only one way. There's certainly an opening there that Vee should explore, and if nothing else, she can potentially turn Gretchen's vote to John whether to actually vote John out or to divide the Keko votes. Vee has laid some groundwork with Gretchen anyway both with her offer to be spoiled some time ago and with her negotiations along with Tina last round. Gretchen will vote for Vee or John, but I'd put the odds at much more equal than what you proposed.
colleenlover		#1194	[-]
Posts: 8387 (08/23/08 7:48 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	and does Alicia just want Gretchen out next and be stuck in a final three with John and Vecepia? Vecepia had already been established as someone that would lose against anyone -isn't that tempting for John from Alicia's POV? And he already admitted to Alicia he had something going with Vee long before her -he just voted out Tina to prevent the winner block at four. Alicia would be scared that if she lost immunity, John or Vecepia would vote her out thinking that they'll think she's an underdog Keko and Vee and John are the needed creeps to face one another. That's why Alicia got the deal from Gretchen in the immunity hang -insurance that Gretchen would bring her to the end if it gets that far. If Alicia gets Vee out next, yes it's risky with Gretchen in the final three but it protects and covers Alicia- with John and Gretchen both taking her. Most likely, Alicia is thinking Vecepia next, and then she or John votes out Gretchen. If Alicia has to vote out Gretchen at final three, her butt is covered for the justification- "Hey, I gave you two extra rounds of life and a fighting chance." Vee on the other hand, won't want Gretchen out next either -though it's killing her that she's stuck with this need. She needs Alicia out and gain Gretchen trust at the final four of saving her so she also gets to a final three where both people will take her to the end -although, like the Alicia case, won't want Gretchen to win final three. Everyone's in a situation where if they win immunity in final four, they have a personal agenda that will differ from the others to force a final three dynamic that will make them the person the other two will take to the final. John -wants Vee and Alicia in final three. Alicia- wants Gretchen and John Vee- wants John and the person she claims to save in final four if she wins immunity (a deal is made) Gretchen -wants Alicia and also the person she saves/deals with if she wins immunity
PJMichaelangelo		#1195	[-]
Posts: 125 (08/23/08 9:16 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I don't think Vee wants any part of Gretchen in F3. I think you've got a John-Vee-Alicia triangle and then Gretchen. Really, those three need to take each other to the final 3, whereas Gretchen could take two epilectic monkeys to the final 3. None of those three can beat Gretchen.
colleenlover		#1196	[-]
Posts: 8388 (08/23/08 11:55 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	that's right Vee doesn't want Gretchen in the final three -she wants Tina and John. But that's out the window. From Vee's POV there was no reason for John to vote out Tina last episode- she'd feel John would think she and he could take Tina out at final three, so she's going to be paying strict attention to this new John/Alicia dynamic and not just march to her potential doom. Yes, she's probably thinking this is stupid of John even making her have to risk dealing with Gretchen. It's not her ideal at all, you're right.
Kitty Pryde1		#1197	[-]
Posts: 5383 (08/23/08 4:34 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Plus, Vee's been in this position before. She's been in the position where she went into the final 4 with three people closer with each other than her. Gretchen could be her Kathy and Alicia her Neleh.
TheLurkerSpeaks		#1198	[-]
Posts: 1284 (08/24/08 2:47 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I actually think Alicia would want Gretchen out at F4 if she doesn't win immunity. From her perspective, she has Gretchen's promise not to vote her out with no strings attached. That keeps Alicia fairly safe through F4 (she thinks), which is what she was after. Vee does not impress her as an immunity threat so she feels safe enough at F3 also. She's not worried about John/Vee because she thinks she has John's number, and the "proof" is that John caved this last round.
Maniacboy888		#1199	[-]
Posts: 2513 (08/24/08 3:37 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I've always loved the stories but i have to call bullshit. You have the right to not go on a reward if you don't want to do so. John didn't have to go with Alicia if he didn't want to. Steph did that in Guatemala to Cindy, so instead Cindy took Rafe. I'm not sure if that rule existed back then but thats just something i wanted to mention.
SenseiKreese		#1200	[-]
Posts: 2453 (08/24/08 4:51 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well yes and no. I think that is a theological question more than anything. Could players refuse to go on a reward back in 2002? Because remember, that's the setting of the story. Could a player do that back then? There's no way to know. I am assuming it wasn't a rule. I am assuming the players could have done anything they wanted to do. But then that leads us to a bigger question. WOULD someone in 2002 have turned down a reward? My gut says that no they wouldn't. The precedent had never been set for someone to do that yet. And at the time, Survivor was still very much a precedent-driven show. You did what players before you had done. My gut says that John wouldn't have even THOUGHT about turning down a reward trip. The second argument I use in my defense is that, even though it was a political disaster for John to be leaving for 24 hours, the physical and physiological benefits would have probably outweighed that. I mean, he's getting rest and relaxation for 24 hours. Plus food! After 34 days of playing Survivor, you would probably be so frazzled and so mind fucked that I have to imagine that ANY break from the game would probably be good for you. After all, John knows there will probably be some important challenges coming up in the upcoming days. So why not get some rest and refreshment when you can get it? It's not like it was his choice to go on this trip. Even though the people at camp are probably going to be pissed at him, it's not HIS ass that will pay the price at Tribal Council. It will be Alicia. So even though strategically this is a horrible idea, my guess is that John would understand that the potential psychological benefits would be enough to make up for Alicia's stupidity. Or in simpler terms, Alicia is the one who fucked up, not him. Worst case scenario is that she gets voted out next, not him. John knows he is pretty much in the final four, no matter what. And here's my third argument. Nothing that happened on that trip had anything whatsoever to do with the ending of this episode. That was all character development stuff. Tina was gone either way. So it's sort of silly to be arguing about this plot point. It doesn't matter if you're right or I'm right. It's just a theological debate that neither one of us can prove either way, and it had nothing to do with the outcome of the episode.

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