I don't have a whole top 20 worked out buy I disagree with everybody that says Amanda should not be included on the list. Making it to the final 2 is a big
achievement and she did it twice. She started filming half-ass before her season aired, she had no chance to learn from her shitty jury performance while all
the other All-Stars were able too. If you compare the two it is clear she did the exact same thing twice. Additionally it is clear both from her talks with
Todd last season and those with Poverty this season and her confessionals both season that like Cirie, Tina, Brian, and other top 10 players she had an amazing
understanding of the game, social dynamics, and the ability to see how her actions would affect herself and others down the line.
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Top 20 Survivor Players of All Time
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 Baulder |
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Posts: 293 (05/14/08 5:34 PM) Registered user |
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Pulau Tiga |
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Posts: 4129 (05/14/08 7:01 PM) Registered user |
Dr Will Hatch two point oh wrote:Let's look at the most recent season, then. Cirie played a much stronger, more complete, better thought-out, more respectable game than Parvati, yet ended up losing due to a late-game twist that she was not expecting (and which would have been very difficult to work around in the few hours she had to do so). It seems to me that such an incident renders your point null and void, because there are certainly players who have played stronger games than the winners have. Making it to the final 2 is a big achievement and she did it twice.Winning's a big achievement. Amber did it once. Does that make her a better player than everyone who hasn't? Oh, and by the way, making the F2 is easy when you have no shot at winning. There's very little skill involved in being the goat. In fact, such a strategy usually encompasses being very, very bad at Survivor. So I'd certainly argue that making the F2 is nothing of a big achievement at all. She started filming half-ass before her season aired, she had no chance to learn from her shitty jury performance while all the other All-Stars were able too. If you compare the two it is clear she did the exact same thing twice.Which makes her a better player than who, exactly? She's the only person in the history of this game who has had the opportunity to give jury speeches twice. The fact that she fucked up both of them in the exact same way does not take away from the fact that she, well, fucked up both of them. Additionally it is clear both from her talks with Todd last season and those with Poverty this season and her confessionals both season that like Cirie, Tina, Brian, and other top 10 players she had an amazing understanding of the game, social dynamics, and the ability to see how her actions would affect herself and others down the line.A player with an amazing understanding of the game would not have embarked upon an unbreakable showmance with a player she could never beat in the final jury vote. A player with an amazing understanding of social dynamics would not have alienated so many people in both of her seasons, especially when so many of those people wound up on the jury. A player with the ability to look down the line would not have made this statement at the Reunion show: "You don't know what they're going to vote for or respect or like. And honestly, it's, like, impossible to guess. All you can do is get yourself to the end." |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 3568 (05/14/08 7:43 PM) Registered user |
Care to explain how she played a better game then Parvati? |
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Pulau Tiga |
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Posts: 4132 (05/14/08 7:50 PM) Registered user |
Dr Will Hatch two point oh wrote:No F2 twist (that is, the game plays out as Parvati and Cirie expected it to), Cirie wins, Parv loses. Simple as that. I don't even need to go into all the other shit Cirie was working the entire game. |
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 3569 (05/14/08 7:55 PM) Registered user |
You can't take Elizas word at face value, the two(Eliza and Parvati) don't like eachother.Its within reason that Parvati had a great final speech
prepared to bust Cirie
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ShanesThinkingSeat |
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Posts: 334 (05/14/08 7:57 PM) |
I agree with that PT, and according to Erik he feels as though it could've been a sweep, but they were all idiots to not have an inkling that there could
be an F2, especially after a) Jeff pointed out the possibility at TC and b) they were down to 3 on night 37. Still, Cirie had minimal time to work around it,
and she prepared the whole game for this F3, knowing she was at the bottom "rung of the ladder" in the trio. The injury to James was probably the
reason there WAS an F2, and although I like Parvati better than Cirie, I think Cirie played an impeccable game, even with the other players knowing what a
great player she was.
Because Cirie was under the assumption all game that there was an F3, it didn't matter to her whether she was the bottom rung of the trio, as long as she outshined both Amanda and Parvati game-wise. She was able to virtually guarantee that there was an F3 when Eliza became the first member of the jury. So I think the producers switching it was a big mistake, though we can't know for sure. |
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Quiddity |
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Posts: 2517 (05/14/08 8:14 PM) Registered User |
Regarding the Parvati thing, the fact of the matter is that Parvati brought in Natalie & Alexis, not Cirie. And Parvati positioned herself better for the
end of the game, being tighter with Amanda than Cirie was. I love Cirie, and I thought she played a terrific game this season, but Parvati edged her out.
I don't have a whole top 20 worked out buy I disagree with everybody that says Amanda should not be included on the list. Making it to the final 2 is a big achievement and she did it twice. She started filming half-ass before her season aired, she had no chance to learn from her shitty jury performance while all the other All-Stars were able too. If you compare the two it is clear she did the exact same thing twice. Additionally it is clear both from her talks with Todd last season and those with Poverty this season and her confessionals both season that like Cirie, Tina, Brian, and other top 10 players she had an amazing understanding of the game, social dynamics, and the ability to see how her actions would affect herself and others down the line Its simple math. We're talking about 16 winners. That seals up the vast majority of the slots right there. Of the few left for other players, Amanda has at a minimum, what, 18 other runners up to compete with too? Not to mention all the great third placers. We've had runners up perform better than Amanda, you gotta admit that. I think its ridiculous to rank her in the top 20 for that reason enough even dismissing her major flaws. |
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ShanesThinkingSeat |
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Posts: 337 (05/14/08 8:19 PM) |
Parvati and Cirie were neck and neck to me, but Parvati was making the decisions, no doubt. More deserving to win? Yes. More likely to win if there was an
F3? No.
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tullfan2 |
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Posts: 2668 (05/14/08 8:41 PM) Registered User |
ShanesThinkingSeat wrote: All of the runner-ups that you mentioned were just as bad as Amanda and all had serious flaws. All of them are bad players. Colby - was naive enough to throw away a guaranteed million dollars by voting out Keith instead of Tina. Clay - did little work around camp on an older tribe that valued work ethic and was unnecessarily mean spirited Boston Rob - backstabbed everyone, was emotionally caught up in a love relationship (even more so than Amanda) and was as bad as Amanda in front of the jury Twila - was mean spirited and alienated many on the jury with her attitude Stepheme - she lost because she was a self-entitled whiny bitch who backstabbed most of her allies; two of whom (Judd and Cindy) had taken her on a reward just a day earlier. The one runner-up that I could make a case for being deserving to win was Ozzy. He is arrogant but he didn't do anything seriously wrong during Cook Islands and if it were a Final 2 and he took Becky, he would have won. If he would have taken Yul, then I would agree that he would be a moron for making the same mistake as Colby did. In many seasons, the runner ups either win the Final IC (when there was a Final 2) or are selected by the winner of the Final IC who realize which of the remaining 2 contestants is easier to beat (except for Colby and Boston Rob). Sometimes the winner of the Final IC often eliminates the best player for the season (eg. Rob C., Fairplay, Rafe, Yau-man (arguably), Cirie).
Last Edited By: tullfan2
05/14/08 8:52 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Us Kids Know |
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Posts: 5893 (05/14/08 8:55 PM) Registered user
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I stopped reading the second I saw "Oz..."
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Dr Will Hatch two point oh |
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Posts: 3571 (05/14/08 9:02 PM) Registered user |
Ozzy was deserving though. His tribe would have been decimated even if he hadn't thrown a challenge
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ShanesThinkingSeat |
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Posts: 338 (05/14/08 9:38 PM) |
tullfan2 wrote: I agree that they are not great players, however all I said was they were better than Amanda. They each made moves contributing to them getting farther in the game. |
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MghtyMouse33 |
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Posts: 7 (05/14/08 9:41 PM) |
I'm not sure why so many people feel Clay is deserving of being in the top 20 best players of all time. He was brought to the final two by Brian as a goat
because he was lazy around camp, had several enemies on the jury, and had ridden Brian's coattails the entire game. The only strategic thing that I saw
Clay do was form a personal friendship with Penny so she would vote for him, and she was only one person on the jury. Other than that, Clay was quite
disrespectful to everyone else in the game. The reason that Clay was so close to beating Brian was more of an anti-Brian movement by Erin and Ken than it was
about Clay playing a better game. I also feel that Twila is not deserving of being in the top 20, as although she was the one who masterminded Leann's
boot, her social game was abysmal, as she was quite abrasive and confrontational with many of the others like Eliza and Ami, and really was only friendly with
Scout and Chris. Plus, she let herself get manipulated by Chris numerous times, notably when he coerced her to be bluntly honest at final tribal council so he
would look like the good guy.
In defense of Amanda, I feel that she displayed a very good understanding of the game both times, and going to the final round two times in a row and playing the game for 78 days with only 3 weeks in between shows a tremendous amount of strength. More importantly, she has proven to be willing to make bold moves and pull them off very successfully, such as the move to get James out in China or using the HII in Micronesia. She has also proven to be a formidible competitor in challenges, whether she uses her physical or mental strength to win them. Her major flaw is basically her final tribal council performance, in which she is not adequately able to explain her game, in part because it is much more subtle and hidden than players like Parvati and Todd, although most of it is that she just doesn't explain herself very well for whatever reason. Still, I feel that her flaw is not nearly as bad as Twila and Clay's flaws, whether it be their poor social game, Clay's lack of work at camp, or either of their performances at Final Tribal Council. Amanda played an all-around very good game socially, physically, strategically/mentally, but she couldn't explain it well in the end, and I feel that in spite of that flaw, she is deserving of being in the top 20. |
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CSCin3D |
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Posts: 8173 (05/14/08 9:47 PM) Registered user |
Clay knew that Brian was dragging him to the end and played on that brilliantly. He was one vote away from a million dollars. If he had just been a little
less grouchy towards his own alliance members he would have won.
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Thailandsurvivor |
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Posts: 710 (05/14/08 9:50 PM) |
MghtyMouse33 wrote: The only thing wrong with this is that Clay was expecting people to be bitter at Brian (giving him a couple more votes and the win.) I don't know if he deserves the top 20, but he deserves props for being the first player to tried to play as a goat. He invented a new strategy. Sure, if he played the game like that now, he'd get no respect gameplay wise (even though he was funny as hell), but no one before him had done this deliberately. |
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beatles20147 |
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Posts: 11563 (05/14/08 9:57 PM) Registered User |
20. Kathy - Needs to be higher. Top 10 at least.
19. Jenna - Ha! 18. Aras - Good one! 17. Boston Rob - On the bubble--great physically and strategically; awful socially. He could never win this game in a million years but he's solid. I'll give it to him because I love his ballsy play in Marquesas. 16. Vecepia - Pretty fair. 15. Danni - Pretty fair. 14. Todd - Pretty fair. 13. Sandra - Love her, but LOL! 12. Yau Man - Don't know if I'd have him this high, but he definitely should be there. 11. Ethan - *Insert your own joke response here* 10. Rob C. - Seems good. 9. Earl - Another on the bubble but I'd say he makes the cut but should be lower. 8. Amanda - Her game implodes at the end. Nah. 7. Tom - Yep. 6. Cirie - Yep. 5. Chris - Another on the bubble for me, but since he won I'll be nice and give it to him. 4. Yul - Hidden idol was a huge advantage but he was a good strategic thinker, so I would say a lower ranking would be fair. 3. Brian - Yep. 2. Tina - Yep. 1. Richard - Yep. So to replace the five I would cut... -Colby. Yeah, voting out Keith was a stupid move that cost him a surefire win. Thing is, he knew that. One move based on personal ethics does not detract from 40 days of near-perfect play. -Parvati. Not a fan but objectively she and the other women played it pretty impressively. -Fairplay. Like Boston Rob, he'd never win but strategically he's incredibly shifty and slippery. The fact that he has no moral limits makes him an incredibly dangerous player to mess with. -Ami. I don't subscribe to the belief that she was an absolute mastermind but she did a pretty solid job keeping everyone in check for the majority of Vanuatu. -Rafe. Idiotic move at F4 for sure, but like Colby, that can't erase so many solidly played days. Everyone knows that I'd love to include some of my personal 'best not to win' picks like Teresa but I wanted to go with the more universal picks. And I knew that nominating Lex for being possibly the best pre-merge player the game has ever seen would be suicidal for the entire post. But post-merge, yeah, he's out of the running. |
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Baulder |
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Posts: 294 (05/14/08 10:08 PM) Registered user |
Palau Tiga I just don't understand what you are trying to say. We all get that Amanda sucks at final tribal councils. We have watched her flounder and fail
twice...but she was not dragged to the final two because she was a goat or Poverty/Todd/Courtney knew they could beat her but because she made alliances and
moves that put her there. She made the same mistake twice but if she had a chance to see her performance she would have undoubtedly adjusted her game just like
we know Poverty, Cirie, Jonathan, Eliza etc... all went into the game benefiting from viewing their whole season. We also don't know that she would have
taken Ozzy to the final two, she simply said that she would have told him about that plan (she might have said that someplace else but I have not read it) we
know that she had a plan the whole time for a Poverty, Cirie, and her final three and really it was a toss up to who the jury would vote for.
I think this debate just shows the problem with creating a hard and fast top 20 Survivors list because there is not a simply set criteria for how to judge what makes a great survivor. Each person puts more weight in different attributes which is why some people think Ozzy is amazing (challenges) and others say Cirie might be the best because of her mental game. I think the fact that Amanda made herself reach the finals twice using both social skills and physicals makes her a strong candidate for the a top 20 survivors list. |
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ShanesThinkingSeat |
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Posts: 340 (05/14/08 10:11 PM) |
CSCin3D wrote: Clay did not know he was Brian's goat. He allowed Brian to make all the decisions. Clay played a good social game with 1 person, from the other tribe. Also, Ken only voted for him due to the "comment" Brian made, and Erin based her vote on honesty. Clay wouldn't have gotten any of the votes from CG, nor Jake's after how he treated him. Brian wasn't going to lose to Clay in F2. |
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roxbury123 |
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Posts: 260 (05/14/08 10:12 PM) |
okay Amanda should be called one of the worst players ever. She lost twice and got to the end the same way twice its not that hard. Amanda rode the coattails
of the biggest gamer of the season. And when she has a chance to strike in the finals she blunders she did it twice and sucked. Now Amber on the other hand
basically created that strategy {riding Jerri and then Rob} but oh yea she won the second time.
So someone tell Amanda that Amber wants her game play back because Amanda did not do it justice. I also deff. think Amber should be on the list. Everyone associates her with this "UTR" strategy and well i think thats the gameplay that has the best record. So it can arguably be called the best strategy and she is coined for it. So idk "UTR" is a strategy. I also want to add people use Amber like a vocab word. "The Amber of the season" nobody says the "Tina of the season" or the "Rich of the season" so...... Parvati should never be on the list for the sole fact she won the 16th season so she had 15 seasons before hand to watch and learn from. Anyone on the new, new seasons should be judged extra hard. Did Parv do anything original and new? not really. We have seen an all girls alliance, we saw the idol thing the season before? so Parvarti really doesnt stick out to me. Parvati did great on the season, but nothing she did stood out to me that was new, it was all done before. I think these "Top 20" should be people who do thing that affect Survivor like an OMG moment, an OMG strategy. |
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colleenlover |
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Posts: 8144 (05/14/08 10:13 PM) Registered User |
Colby is on my list because clearly he understood what he was doing every step of the way. It's not like he didn't know the possibility of what would
happen if he took Tina -it's just more about his human nature and how he wanted to play the game.
He's similar to Amanda though in that he just plain crapped out at the final TC with his performance. But now Amanda, what is she doing? We don't have enough info yet, do we? She didn't vote Ozzy out, and in her ideal world when would Ozzy have left? Was she planning on going to the final five, four with James and Ozzy also in tow? Would she have taken Ozzy to the end over Parvati? Parvati I still need more info on too. Did she have an idea about what to do during a switch -and going to the end with Amanda and Cirie in her ideal world. Cirie is Cirie with an outstanding reputation, and Amanda was rumored to be in the final three of China and a presumed winner. Dicey. S1 -Richard, Greg, Colleen, Sue (until she spilled all to Rich) S2- Tina, Colby S3- Brandon (mind like a steel trap, but did himself in) S4- Vecepia, Kathy, Boston Rob (for thinking outside the box) S5- Brian, Clay S6- Rob C S7 -Johnny Fairplay -(I love Sandra, but she was flying by the seat of her pants) All-stars- Tina, Kathy (both pulling out all the stops) S9- Scout(?!!), Chris, Twila, Julie, Eliza S10 -Jenn; (I don't know enough about Tom's game -thought he had to have things explained to him, and was a target if he didn't win immunity) S11- Danni, Rafe S12- Cirie (a genius) S13- Yul; Parvati was pretty darn slick up until the merge S14- Yau Man! Earl S15 -Todd, Amanda, -I think Courntey was pretty slick too S16 -Cirie, Tracy |
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- Survivor Sucks
- Lions, Tigers, Survivors - Oh My!
- Survivor Spoilers
- MESS Hall Tribal Council
- MESS Hall Archive
- Survivor Speculation
- Survivor 20+
- The Amazing Race
- Big Brother
- Big Brother - PAST SEASONS
- The Apprentice
- American Idol
- American Idol PAST SEASONS
- The Mole
- Lost
- Other Shows That Suck
- Off Topic
- Clubs That Suck. No, Really.
- The Dump
- Monster Island
- Purgatory
- FAQ
- In Memory, 9/11/01
