S-16 Edgic (editing and logic)

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AllMenAreIslands		#5021	[-]
Posts: 23775 (05/12/08 8:49 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	scepticA wrote: If someone would care to do so, maybe they'd compare eps 2-5 for Chris in S9 and those "empty episodes" of parvati. A lot of us, myself included, gave Chris a CP1 or 2 for some of those eps when the "consensus" was UTR. I was amazed at how just about every comment from his mouth, whether confessional or conversation, was heavy-duty game related. I even said that a few of his comments should be in the "how to play survivor" game book. I confess I don't recall that from Parv's quiet period, but if she did say truly game-pertinent stuff, then MOR or CP was warranted. And that's probably why Edgic missed seeing Chris as a contender at the end. If his good comments are buried under UTR ratings, how can the group see it at the merge that he's obviously being tended carefully? I'm not sure if Parvati would rate CP for her UTRs, but it's possible that one was, while another was MOR. Maybe 2 of the UTRs were true UTRs. unduli, I agree that INV needs work. Jif calling a player's name 3 times could be more than INV, tho. We'd need someone to do challenge duty, keeping track of how many times everyone's names are called, so that we could see if 3 were a lot or a little for that challenge. When there are 16 or more players, being called 3 times is a lot. If there are only 6 people, three calls would perhaps be INV worthy. If people still have some eps TIVO'd maybe during the next few months they could work with the FvF season just to test the theories, and see what kind of data we'd have been working with if we had had this system in place. That would be fun, yes? It could be that the scale for INV needs to change over the season. In the first few eps, it would take less to attain UTR status, because of there being so many whose names aren't mentioned more than once, and they are INV in the challenge. If they don't get personal time in the rest of the ep, bam INV. Mid-season, with the number of players reduced by a quarter, we would like see an overall increase in the number of times everyone's names are called. However, again, if we had a watchdog keeping track, rather than having a set chart, maybe the best way is to use the data so that we draw a line depending on how many or how few even get their names called twice, or three times. And so on. What do you think?
colleenlover		#5022	[-]
Posts: 8124 (05/12/08 8:50 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The Marquesan Godfather wrote: You read every post concerning this season in spoiler forum in a couple hrs, Colleenlover? That's amazing. No, I skimmed -but I'll go through it more. Just the bootsheet one, I'll hunt around for more.
AllMenAreIslands		#5023	[-]
Posts: 23776 (05/12/08 9:08 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: I don't know if there is a system that can work because editing is a craft, an art-form and will always be based on predicting their pyschology on telling a story. In order to work more efficiently, the ratings need to be more cut and dried, less interpretative. The idea isn't to have ratings that are wishy-washy, or vague & indistinct, which are being subjectively applied. The idea is to have easy to understand ratings, which are a shorthand for the edit. A shorthand that everyone knows what's meant and isn't left guessing if the UTR was actually something more vital. I agree that editing is a craft & an art form, and the editors aren't doing it to make our job easier or more difficult. Their goal is to tell a story, with many other stories running through it. Being more objective in the ratings will help us to see the intent, I think.
GretchenIsMyGod		#5024	[-]
Posts: 3092 (05/12/08 9:36 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	colleenlover wrote: This season makes me want to apply again! Let's do it! I'm soooo Erik but more animated. And I need money. Last Edited By: GretchenIsMyGod 05/12/08 9:38 PM. Edited 1 times.
Oowatanite		#5025	[-]
Posts: 5212 (05/12/08 9:39 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Cirie arriving at Ponderosa - Probably one of the saddest things I've watched on Survivor. It's just crushing. Actually, that was a fun video, sort of a "karma is a bizzle" for Cirie to be blindsided by a F3 IC. A payback for all of the Cirie smirks and smugness and laughs, at various TCs when others were blindsided. LOLOLOLOLOL- went to spoilers. that was fun -there seemed to be nothing but slams against edgic -yet nothing but arguing about who would win based on their edit. Well, after last season when I confidently picked Todd based on his edit and the F3 spoiler, over Bluto's stupid "Amanda wins" ~~spoiler~~ guess, I hereby take ~~credit~~ blame for this perversion of the spoiler threads. I think that INV could stay, but in an INV0 format. Unduli, INV was always supposed to be a "zero" visibility - UTR0. The player in question was, edgcially, invisible. The voting site never allowed for a viz of 0, so most edgicers began using INV1 instead of INV or UTR0 and that's why a lot of them couldn't/wouldn't differentiate between INV and UTR1. Let me also congratulate Cirie for being the best player ever to have played this game. I will acknowledge that Cirie was a favourite of the editors, but she is hardly the best player ever. Come on now. We had to suffer thru the Cirie fantards making their "mark" in this thread, but Cirie's main strategy was very simple in each season. First, get in the majority alliance during the competing tribes stage, thus protecting a weak challenge player. Then use that "weak in challenges" fact to cruise to the endgame while bigger challenge "threats" are taken out. Cire was not taken seriously as a threat since all of the players knew that she could be taken out at any time. And lo and behold, Cirie is taken out before reaching the F2 in each season. Did Cirie make some good game moves ? Yep. And we were shown every last one of them. Why ? Because she was a fan favourite and she didn't win in either season, so there was no need to hide her moves. Frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to put Cirie in the top 15 of "best players of all time".
colleenlover		#5026	[-]
Posts: 8125 (05/12/08 9:51 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I would put Ciire as one of the best players, most definitely. You have to take into account her physical limitations and how much of a liability it is early in the game. In Exhile she was that liabilitiy and worked it after Melinda left that she wouldn't leave if her tribe lost. And gosh, to become everyone's confidant -and have Aras and Daniele wanting to take her to the end and be that protected is incredible. Even this season, she had Parvati and Amanda, two sharp players, thinking there is a final three and taking Cirie is pretty impressive. Even her move with alligning with Yau-Man was a solid plan to begin with -she's just really an outstanding player. God, if I were playing, I know I would say I love her but I want her out ASAP.
GretchenIsMyGod		#5027	[-]
Posts: 3093 (05/12/08 9:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	my god are you joking? cirie played more brilliantly (from what we were shown) than anyone i can name. cirie, tina, cirie tina ... GIMG in awe ...
astroline		#5028	[-]
Posts: 1172 (05/12/08 9:59 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Sorry, Oowatanite, but I disagree with you as usual. I'm not a Cirie fan but I also believe she's the best player to ever play the game. I don't know who you quoted it from, but I think that statement is accurate. Cirie played a near flawless game both times she's been on, especially for an "older" overweight African American female. The only reason she lost both times was due to a fire-making tiebreaker and... Amanda. Other than that, her perception on strategy and how to play the game is truly unmatched by anyone else, and she's probably made the most big moves out of anyone ever. I agree that the Cirie video at Ponderosa was hard to watch. Poor thing. Thanks, cantthinkofaname, for volunteering to take over the VF chart for this finale. I appreciate it. And have fun in the Bahamas, Warrior!
OnlyTheHunter		#5029	[-]
Posts: 1539 (05/12/08 10:03 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Here's a quick look, as promised, at Parvati's edit from episodes 2-5, all I have time for now. Episode 2 See her flirt with James, confessional that she is working the flirting angle with James. Amanda SPV's that James and Parvati are part of the couple alliance. At the kissing scene of the Ozzibles, Cirie comments on James and Parvati attending the wedding, reinforcing the flirting. But Jonathon is "afraid of Parvati, James, Amanda & Ozzy." Cirie doesn't mind the separate couples but together the 4 are her problem. Analysis - She begins where she said she would ep 1, as a flirt. She is defined into a specific alliance, so we know where she is at this point in the game. She gets a confessional and mucho SPV to reinforce it. She's actually on screen little, but it isn't fluff about reading treemail. It sets up her game. Episode 3 Cirie sees her flirt more with James. The F3 raft scene. Parvati tells the nervous Cirie she's made James no promises. She knows she'll lose against James and Ozzy in the F3, no matter what. When Amanda questions her own flirting, Parvati immediately tells her to stay close so they don't ask questions. She gives Cirie a F3 pact. She is the boot target of Jonathan and Yau Man. She tells James that she is concerned about Yau Man, and that James better protect her. At TC, Jonathan says the best move is to boot Parvati. She gets a TC question, and gets to tell that it may appear she's only flirting and she isn't surprised by the perception. Jonathan votes against Parvati, and warns her that Cirie played her like a fiddle and she signed her death warrant. Analysis - major importance with again, little screen time in comaprison to Cirie and Jonathan. She shows her old self, but we see her willing to change it up. She works with the girls. She doesn't stay in a flirty safety zone. She deftly acknowledges her old perception from others at TC. (The "death warrant" quote was refuted before the final, Amanda remaking near the end how Parvati had Cirie wrapped around her finger, an evoltuion begin here.) This is where Parvati changed in viewer's minds, just a little. A slow build begins. Episode 4 One scene, walking with Eliza, who tries to save herself, when Jonathan walks up on them. Parvati gets a confessional, where she correctly (per the edit) calls out Eliza trying to save herself, equalling Jonathan's assessment of Eliza. Analysis - the walking scene stood out. Parvati sees the game as a player. One in control. You don't forget that short scene, but she isn't overdone either. Episode 5 Ozzy knows he can trust Parvati, along with James and Amanda. Amanda SPV's her in the 4 clique group. They are separated, uh-oh. The busted lip is not only memorable, but gets SPV from Jonathan afterward. Analysis - a true hold back epsiode, but her place in the game is kept in viewer's minds (much like Chris, isn't it, just through SPV instead of confessionals?) and her lip got odd focus. OVERALL - always given something wihtout fluff, nothing about the weather, or comments on how hard the challenge was. Always her game or comments about playing it. Substance, in small doses. Michael
colleenlover		#5030	[-]
Posts: 8127 (05/12/08 10:14 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Wow, she really, really did play almost two flawless games -always making sure she was as protected as possible for the moves ahead. The shakiest move was taking Ozzy out and evening it out with four fans and four faves- for all Parvati and Cirie knew, Natalie and Alexis could have been playing the female alliance angle to weed out males faves. Natalie should have flipped it by taking out James instead of Jason to always be in the position that Parvati was in- but I understand the need on Cirie's part in fear of the Parvati, Amanda, Ozzy, James block of four in the final eight, seven.
Kitty Pryde1		#5031	[-]
Posts: 4093 (05/12/08 10:18 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeah, Oo. I mean, Cirie has a tremendous amount of skill. Sure, there are players that would consistently get far in the game. Amanda, Amber, and Parvati are great examples. They have a much easier time bonding with other young women because of their common age group, the young men because of the fact that they're attractive, and they get kept around by the older players, should they happen to take control, because they're strong enough to not be viewed as challenge liabilities. Now Cirie is someone who would typically not make it far in ANY season. For one, she's overweight, which puts a target on her back as being unfit to compete in the challenges. Two, she's older, which means she might end up distanced from the majority of younger players (since casts are typically young, nowadays). Three, she's black, which is not meant to be racist. But when you have one or two black players in a season with 14 white players, it's going to be much harder to bond, especially since some people just have their own previous biases. So for someone like Cirie to get to the final episode in two seasons just proves how good a player she is, especially given how much control she had over the voting situation in both seasons.
fat little fingers		#5032	[-]
Posts: 5527 (05/12/08 11:28 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Oo: Well, after last season when I confidently picked Todd based on his edit and the F3 spoiler, I just love comments like this in Edgic. OTH: OVERALL - always given something wihtout fluff, ... This is what I saw too. She was either silent or giving us game. There might not have been much at times, but it always pointed in the same direction, the end-game. Add her "I'm here to win" comments and it was pretty persuasive. But, it required recognizing the opening conf for what it was.
fat little fingers		#5033	[-]
Posts: 5528 (05/12/08 11:31 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I love being mocked. Love ya, chap! My close call thing is gonna have to be done from the road.
cantthinkofaname		#5034	[-]
Posts: 1133 (05/12/08 11:55 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Here you go guys.
getting real		#5035	[-]
Posts: 1202 (05/13/08 1:39 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I'm not a Cirie fan but I also believe she's the best player to ever play the game. I don't know who you quoted it from, but I think that statement is accurate. Cirie played a near flawless game both times she's been on, especially for an "older" overweight African American female. That quote was mine, Astro. I wasn't anywhere near that view before this season but her flexibility and clinical game-play in turning every situation to her advantage won me over. It's a pity that her finishing position dictated an edit that didn't give her anywhere near the credit she deserved for her game moves - think of the revisionist recaps which undervalued her contribution in comparison to Parvati's. Unfortunately, she seems to have been done in by an assumption that every rational player would make: Based on recent experience and the unlikelihood of an even-numbered jury (never happened before), she assumed that there would be an F3. Should she have considered that so many unscheduled withdrawals would leave a surfeit of challenges that had to be used? Perhaps. It's a very small criticism compared to some stellar game play. IRONY-WATCH: Does anyone think it extraordinary that a girly-girl such as Amanda failed to pick up a single female vote in two seasons of trying? Does the answer perhaps lie in the difficulties she apparently has relating to people outside her 'cliques'? Her devotion to those cliques would also explain the end-game melt-downs that have occurred when she inevitably had to turn on members of her own alliances at F4 in both her seasons. Also worth noting is the fact that Parvati, a girl whose flirting is her self-confessed raison d' etre, not only scored every female vote but also none of the male votes except Jason's - the man she went out of her way to label 'loser'. I guess Penner's Cirie quote and Eliza's snaking worked as reverse ironies. Does the answer perhaps lie in her difficulties relating to females outside her various 'cliques'? That would also explain the end-game meltdowns that come when she has to face turning on people in those cliques? Let's do it! I'm soooo Erik but more animated. And I need money. GIMG, I hear Nicaragua's the place to be at the moment... Last Edited By: getting real 05/13/08 4:08 AM. Edited 2 times.
Jedijake		#5036	[-]
Posts: 5174 (05/13/08 5:23 AM) MESS member Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Well (puts hands behind head) it's finally nice to see Cirie getting some credit as one of the best players ever. I just wish she was acknowledged for such at the reunion. It almost makes you wonder if she pulled an attitude against the producers for the final 2 crap that lead to how she was so neglected at the reunion. Cirie ROCKS!
craig		#5037	[-]
Posts: 13107 (05/13/08 8:00 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Parvati Rating for the Finale - CPP4 Parv was clearly the most positive, and Amanda the least positive. The scene where Parv climbed the coconut tree and knocked down a tone of coconuts was very P, showing she could fill Ozzy's shoes as a survivalist. We saw that Natalie adores here and they have a special connection. We saw her stay out of the Cirie\Amanda drama after F4 TC. She made a jcomment about not killing the chicken because she's an animal lover that made Jason smile. She seemed honest and upfront at Final TC.Cirie made Amanda praise P's game, which made P look good, Cirie look pro-P, and Amanda look foolish. Amanda on the other hand had a meltdown or mini-nervous breakdown. Her crying when she booted Cirie was taken as acting for at least one juror (Alexis). The hostility she got from the jury was surprising given her previous edit. PS: it has been reported (from interviews I haven't read yet) that Parvati did find the HII when she went to exile.Very interesting that they'd leave that out for a winner. Natalie CPP2 - nice exit for her. She may have been villianous earlier, but she didn't go out that way. Last Edited By: craig 05/13/08 8:07 AM. Edited 1 times.
Oowatanite		#5038	[-]
Posts: 5214 (05/13/08 8:30 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	fat little fingers wrote: Oo: Well, after last season when I confidently picked Todd based on his edit and the F3 spoiler, I just love comments like this in Edgic. Wow. Talk about taking comments out of context. Let's try this again. CL : LOLOLOLOLOL- *went to spoilers. that was fun -there seemed to be nothing but slams against edgic -yet nothing but arguing about who would win based on their edit.* Oo : Well, after last season when I confidently picked Todd based on his edit and the F3 spoiler, over Bluto's stupid "Amanda wins" ~~spoiler~~ guess, I hereby take ~~credit~~ blame for this perversion of the spoiler threads. Once again, being spoiled, I have NEVER made any winner predictions in Edgic, either this season or last season. And Chaperone can back me up on this. Too bad some Cirietards and some Amandatards cannot make the same claim. I would put Ciire as one of the best players, most definitely. You have to take into account her physical limitations and how much of a liability it is early in the game. I did take this into account. I posted that she had to be part of the majority alliance in her tribe in order to survive the early boots, usually of weak challenge players. Even this season, she had Parvati and Amanda, two sharp players, thinking there is a final three and taking Cirie is pretty impressive. Amanda wanted to stay loyal to the F3 deal and Parv wanted Nat on the jury. Had there been a F3, Cirie would have got Eliza's vote and that's it, thus finishing third anyway. my god are you joking? cirie played more brilliantly (from what we were shown) than anyone i can name. cirie, tina, cirie tina ... GIMG in awe ... I have to comment on this. From what we were shown. With Cirie, we were shown pretty much every move she made. Why ? Because she was a fan fave and a Probst/Burnett fave. And she didn't win, so there was no need to hide anything. With Tina, most of her "game" was hidden by the editors because she was the shocking winner. Any "brilliance" attributed to Tina is speculative and built on reputation. If Tina had lost to Colby in the end, more of her game would have been shown. Just like Cirie. The only reason she lost both times was due to a fire-making tiebreaker and... Amanda. I agree. Cirie couldn't win a challenge to save her (game) life. That's why she was allowed to stay during the early and mid-jury stages - she could be disposed of anytime. And every player knew that. Now Cirie is someone who would typically not make it far in ANY season. For one, she's overweight, which puts a target on her back as being unfit to compete in the challenges. Two, she's older, which means she might end up distanced from the majority of younger players Under these terms, I guess we have to argue that KimJ and Jan and Lill and Scout and Lydia and Cassandra and Denise should all be considered some of the best players to ever play this game. I just wish she was acknowledged for such at the reunion. It almost makes you wonder if she pulled an attitude against the producers for the final 2 crap that lead to how she was so neglected at the reunion. I think it's more likely that Cirie was "neglected" because her answers were preceded by LONG awkward pauses which probably drove Probst crazy.
cantthinkofaname		#5039	[-]
Posts: 1134 (05/13/08 8:37 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Craig, you're to easy on Parv. (not to say she didn't have P moments) I'm guessing you really like her or hate Amanda, or both. idk. Parvati struck me as overconfident and kinda arrogant. Just because she's smiling all the time doesn't make her P. I wouldn't give her an N though. I'd say M. I'd give Cirie a P if anyone. Natalie, I don't know. I didn't really get much tone P or N. Amanda seemed really unfairly treated, her negative comments from other people were not accurate, a few jury Qs were just anti-Amanda and Pro-parvai (Cirie's comes to mind). Yes there were jurors comments that were Anti-Parv and/or pro-Amanda, but rightfully so. I'll probably do static or maybe P for Amanda. (Note: it's 6:34 am right now where I am, and I've stayed up all night. That might explain anything I typed that sounds weird. But being up this long diminished some of my inhibitions too, so that's also a big contributor to me typing so much of my thoughts.)
AllMenAreIslands		#5040	[-]
Posts: 23782 (05/13/08 8:50 AM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Have to catch up on reading the previous page but just wanted to put this idea down while it's fresh. What if we utilize the 1 and 2 visibility for INV, to indicate levels of INVness? I'm thinking about people who are TOTALLY INV, being INV2. They are like ghosts, no mention in challenge, no footage in rest of ep. Lucky if they make it into a group shot! INV1 would be for people who get either challenge mention, or one closeup during the regular ep. I reckon there are people in the early going who are TRUE INV, i.e. INV2. Rather than reject the idea of using levels of INV, we could use the viz level to reflect that someone did get challenge footage time. I want to review an early ep myself to see how well this might work, and if it's even necessary. I know that INV isn't something worth worrying about too much, or at least it hasn't been, but it would make the UTR1 level actually be the 3rd from bottom in viz level. Just a thought...

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S-16 Edgic (editing and logic)

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