S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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unduli clone		#3941	[-]
Posts: 2365 (12/25/07 10:42 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Excellent post, OTH. I actually read every single word. :) I think that probably was a big reason for the Amanda support - people wanted her to win. Pre-show I picked her as a favorite cause she was cute, a fan, and shared by birthday. I wouldn't Edgically support her because of that though. I didn't want Yul to win, but I picked him and advocated him as the winner. I think it's hard to separate opinion and Edgic, but it is necessary. And your points on the early boots' visibility numbers outweighing Todd's was also note-worthy.
cantthinkofaname		#3942	[-]
Posts: 1023 (12/25/07 1:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE
I LUV TIJUANA		#3943	[-]
Posts: 506 (12/25/07 5:03 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Merry Xmas and Happy Holidays!
GretchenIsMyGod		#3944	[-]
Posts: 2981 (12/25/07 5:59 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I saw that PG, Courtney and Amanda were all considered for the next season of Survivors, so at first I thought I was spoiled because of the no-winners thing. but then I heard Yul was considered and dropped, and was the only winner considered (according to Coby). So I thought maybe one of these ladies stood a chance at winning (even though I noticed there was no rumor of Todd being considered for the next season). Total AnyoneButTodd syndrome. And man, I really wanted PG to win! So bad!! I really tried to fit a square peg into a round hole with that one, because they were driving home the Amanda/Todd ties so much, I just figured PG faced them in the F3. Damnit damnit. PG and Courtney would've made terrific winners ... oh imagine Courtney's edit had she won. it would've been brilliant.
unduli clone		#3945	[-]
Posts: 2370 (12/25/07 8:27 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	^ A Peih-Gee pick wasn't a necessarily bad choice. Obviously she didn't win, but with cold hard numbers and data she looked good. I think the only reasons one would pick Todd over her is emotional, non-rateable things - being on the tribe that was generally less desireable, the bitchiness/whining that was handled in a more irritating way than Todd's... just little things like that don't really factor into the data of Edgic. I think Peih-Gee was a decent pick, honestly.
Cassidy666		#3946	[-]
Posts: 6728 (12/25/07 9:39 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	GretchenIsMyGod wrote: oh imagine Courtney's edit had she won. it would've been brilliant. I totally agree. It would have been incredible to see.
OnlyTheHunter		#3947	[-]
Posts: 1281 (12/25/07 11:21 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	The wrap-up I wanted to write, which was too haphazard last night, is this. Leave Tone calculations alone. Todd's Tone was not an issue at the merge, and Edgic's job is to nail the winner then. You could speculate JR was too N by the merge, or possibly Courtney, but not Todd or PG. Consider removal of the known pair guideline, or at least re-defining it. Remove the "old" guideline references to observation #6, the new one is no longer new and is the proper one to refer to. Don't freak out with a player who's first 4 or 5 episodes have visibility ratings of 4-4-3-4-3 without checking out the other players. You should freak out if no one else is getting 3s or higher consistently, because if the high visibility player is the only one getting visibility, that's bad. But when OTT4 and OTT5 players are chewing up screen time concurrently, the CP4 player is not being shown too much. In fact, that player is usually being shown enough to stand out amongst the big personalities early. When a player finds a hidden immunity idol, the player will garner higher visibility and edited presence than he/she would have gotten in that episode. If said player is one with bigger visibility, it's not a death knell, it's to be expected. A distraction is already in the guidelines as a player that is "often OTT". A player who is CP in three straight episodes is not a distraction based on rating, as that player is not OTT. Most important, Edgic is about figuring out the edit of the winner. You can't force someone to fit the guidelines, nor can you ignore someone fitting them because you wish they didn't. Root when you watch and enjoy the episode, but not when doing Edgic. I know, easier said than done. But you have too. You can question my rankings, my reasons for choosing a winner, my haircut and my diet (Pepsi Max and pepperoni pizza again, hell yeah!) but not the approach I take to Edgic. Keeping my enjoyment as a fan out of here is the one thing I'm probably best at separating. And in my old days on the James Bond newsgroup I was pure fandom myself, it's something Edgic for Survivor taught me how to do. wallduck hit on something about how Edgic should be a community effort. Absolutely. We strive to make Edgic work correctly together. I feel like I am among friends while I'm here, and I echo a post chaperone made earlier this season about how cool it would be to have an Edgic get together. It's an oxymoron with the previous paragraph, keep your fandom at the door, but have fun here doing what might be interpreted as work. The goal is always to get the answer right, to name the winner. It ain't about bragging rights for anyone over anyone else. Don't be afraid, however, to explain sincerely when you have a disagreement, just base it on the guidlelines, not your preferences or the person you respond to. Unless it's Quiddity, then just shrug, laugh and move along... :-) Now one more post about about another important subject then I'm off to enjoying my kids for a few days and may or may not check in late for a while. Michael
OnlyTheHunter	Micronesia thoughts	#3948	[-]
Posts: 1282 (12/25/07 11:25 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hey, I'd like to get us thinking about something to hash out ideas. I'll lay it out, I want Edgic to nail the winner in Micronesia. But since there have been issues in returning player seasons, I wanted to discuss what concerns we should consider while there's time to talk. Think first to episode one of China. We don't know anyone. By the end of the first break we know PG connects to the culture, Denise is a mom, Courtney is an impatient waitress who speaks her mind, Leslie is a Christian, JR is a schemer and Todd is a better one at reading people. (Oh, and Amanda is happy to be there, or something.) A little glimpse of everyone is shown for the major players that pretty much defined their character the rest of the season. Now think to episode one of Allstars. There was no buildup, we just got naked Hatch without much exposition why, Tom already getting tired of Sue's Borneo talk without describing who Sue is. Thrown in was one new game moment, Rob and Amber's alliance. Basically, Edgic's strength is seeing an initial edit of a player and judging where it will go. Why show this person this way at this time? Why not show someone? (i.e. easy eliminations, Erik, etc.) The problem with returning players is that they have had a crafted, and known edit. And by looking at Guatemala and Allstars, the edit the returning player finished with previously is the one they picked up with. Steph was the returning heroine, Bobby Jon works himself (literally) sick, Tina dislikes Jerri, but if you missed seeing the players before, just hang on and take their word for it. Guatemala took all 13 (14?) episodes to tear away at Steph's sweetheart persona until even her loyalist fans were tired of her game. No need to do that with a new player, right? So my thoughts wonder about how we should look at this season. What do you think about the following regarding the Fans and the Favorites? 1 - INV rating/UTR1 in episode 1 - Should INV hold up? (I would think yes.) How about UTR1 in episode 1? If a Favorite is the winner, would we give them a pass in episode 1? How about a Fan? 2 - Visibility - With "high" visibility winners Yul, Earl and Todd (but still in good MOR Differential range) recently, would high visibility be as great a concern for a Favorite? Would a Fan need higher visibility throughout to be the winner? (Danni's win suggests not, but how about now?) If a Fan has very high visibility, would that be an even bigger detriment? 3 - Themes - Was there a theme to Allstars? With any season? The best in Allstars was the inability to break up Chapera. Other than "Fans vs. Favorites", should we look for any story arcs, or simply try to find any loose ends along the way? 4 - Are we more likely to see "good TV" moments that may not correlate to the winner's story because we'll know some of the characters? 5 - If a Fan gets multiple UTR's early, should be have concerns a la Amanda or be more forgiving if Favorites hog more air time? Basically, I approach Edgic from the idea that Episode 1 is the beginning of a template. I pay attention episode to episode, but always concentrate on the bigger picture and how the endgame threads are left hanging. I'm concerned that the Favorites may leave red herrings and the Fans may get the bare minimum. So what do you think? How will you approach the upcoming season? Michael
fat little fingers		#3949	[-]
Posts: 5175 (12/26/07 12:22 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hola, Edgicers! I'm on the road and unable to post until I realized this borrowed laptop had an out of date firefox browser. All's well now. Just read the old s-13 Edgies. What great energy we had at the end of that season. I haven't caught up on the past few days postings, but I will be home Friday night and able to join in more then. Sorry for taking a holiday powder, but it can't be helped. Will post tomorrow. p.s.: It's hard to find good vegies on the road. Don't Americans eat at least some vegies??
chaperone		#3950	[-]
Posts: 2259 (12/26/07 12:40 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Hey OTH, those are some great posts by you. I agree with so much of it, you're so right on..... For next season, I think with regard to the returning players, we need to be cognizant of anyone of the "Favorites" who is having a story told which explains why they're different than last time we saw them. That's what happened in Guat...BJ didn't have to be explained or only lightly so since he was a juror, but getting sick made for a good story. Steph had some serious explanations to the fans to understand why on earth she lost this game and people didn't like her. She wasn't the OTTP hero in Guatemala that she was in Palau, and the game wouldn't make sense if she just got beat by another chick who was just more well liked. They had to explain her bad decisions, and she had to be presented to the audience with her rough edges ("gay and retarded", anyone?) so there was no fan revolt after Palau's hero loses 6-1 to a prissy (yet decently athletic) Christian Beauty Queen football fan. So...be on the lookout for Favorites players who are having something explained...those can be jury ties...etc. Merry Christmas, Chap
MasterDarkNinja		#3951	[-]
Posts: 2650 (12/26/07 12:41 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Guatemala took all 13 (14?) episodes to tear away at Steph's sweetheart persona until even her loyalist fans were tired of her game. Not for me, they never did tear it away, but for the people who they did tear it away from it was much sooner then the finale, it was by episode #5 that the difference in the edit was clear. By the finale I recall a bunch of people at sucks (though certainly not even close to everyone) wanting her to win. 1 - INV rating/UTR1 in episode 1 - Should INV hold up? (I would think yes.) How about UTR1 in episode 1? If a Favorite is the winner, would we give them a pass in episode 1? How about a Fan? Given the current trend in editing lately with Yul/Earl/Todd I don't think they'd give the winner an UTR1 in the first episode, especially not a favorite. 2 - Visibility - With "high" visibility winners Yul, Earl and Todd (but still in good MOR Differential range) recently, would high visibility be as great a concern for a Favorite? Would a Fan need higher visibility throughout to be the winner? (Danni's win suggests not, but how about now?) If a Fan has very high visibility, would that be an even bigger detriment? While there's no reason we can't get a quieter winner this time around then the last 3 seasons, I'd imagine that unless someone wins likes Amber or Danni (getting a "anybody but that person" vote) they'd be at the very least an average visibility winner. The real question to this though is what qualifies someone for a Steph situation, they lose a jury vote and therefore have to be torn down in the editing? Would a big villain like S14 James, or Fairplay get much of a different edit if they lost in front of the jury? The casual viewer hates them already. Then when it comes to the other favorites just how much of a favorite do they have to be to justify tearing them down as badly as Steph was? Would someone who was a favorite for being an underdog, but no where near as P as her, like Yau-Man, qualify to be torn down, or can they merely be shown doing nothing while others are shown as more deserving? I think one question we should ask ourselves is how they'd edit a big villain favorite if they won, do they turn them into a more likable person, perhaps a hero eventually, or do they have them continue to be a villain who they show knowing how to the play the game? And what about people who were sort of villains, sort of heroes, but at different parts of the season, what kind of an edit would they get? Especially if they left the season as a villain. They would be easier to turn into a likable hero once again, but would they, or would they keep up their old villain character for some reason? I guess if someone is a villain again or not would depend somewhat on what the jury said to them, like if a Fairplay or Shane made it to the jury chances are someone would say to them "you were a real jerk at camp", because last time they were jerks to other people, and would probably do so again.
9RedWing19		#3952	[-]
Posts: 2091 (12/26/07 1:14 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Guatemala took all 13 (14?) episodes to tear away at Steph's sweetheart persona until even her loyalist fans were tired of her game. As Steph's Edgic watchdog for both seasons, I'll say that this is completely incorrect - check out her episode by episode ratings (eg in the final 5 episodes of S11, for tone ratings she had 3 positive episodes, one neutral, one negative).
OnlyTheHunter		#3953	[-]
Posts: 1283 (12/26/07 1:22 PM) Edgician Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Yeah, the quote about Steph needs clarification. I said that remembering how from the CBS poll, she was uber popular, but it dropped and dropped, and by the finale, Danni passed her, which had to make some CBS editor go, "Hell Yeah!" I think we saw it turning very quickly, but average viewers loved her and forgave a lot of stuff early. It took hitting them over the head to make a point that this is a different side of Steph. That doesn't really fit here. Different than what we saw, no question. Sorry, that was confusing. MDN, I had to think to realize that James is Rocky. I don't know that answer, if a prior super villain got to the end. Hmmm. Michael
guatemala fanfic		#3954	[-]
Posts: 2705 (12/26/07 1:24 PM) Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Whoever the winner is, I'm willing to guess that it's someone who comments on the twist in some way. Whether it be a "fan" saying he/she wants to beat the All-Stars or a "favorite" saying that the fans will be no competition, etc. etc. The winner will have to have a quote about this in some way, I think. So if someone is an UTR1 and only gets this kind of comment, I would not eliminate them based on it because they still get something meaningful. If they're UTR1 and they get some kind of insignificant TCQ like Erik and no specific attention elsewhere, then they should be eliminated.
9RedWing19		#3955	[-]
Posts: 2092 (12/26/07 4:43 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I said that remembering how from the CBS poll, she was uber popular, but it dropped and dropped, and by the finale, Danni passed her, Sorry, even this is not quite true - Steph's popularity (per the CBS site poll), bottomed out in Ep 9 and recovered somewhat (though never back to where it was going into S11). She and Danni were virtually tied at the end of the season (the results are still available on the CBS S11 site).
MasterDarkNinja		#3956	[-]
Posts: 2651 (12/26/07 6:48 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I wouldn't trust the CBS favorite poll all that much, it can be heavily skewed by people voting hundreds of times over a week for the same person, or people making bots to constantly vote for the same person. I mean I believe in either S13 or S11 (I forget which season) in the middle of a season the first boot suddenly soared up to the top 2, over 6 episodes after getting voted out. Had they kept up the old 1-10 rating polls then chances are Stephenie would have certainly dropped at least 20 or 30 points by the end of Guatemala from her 90% at the end of the Palau.
wallduck		#3957	[-]
Posts: 419 (12/26/07 6:55 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	Edgic is strongest pre merge. This could be added to the guidelines.
9RedWing19		#3958	[-]
Posts: 2093 (12/26/07 8:58 PM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I wouldn't trust the CBS favorite poll all that much Yes, it's flawed and yes, the change that was made between S10 and S11 made it less valuable, but it's the only "objective" data source available that measures the popularity of contestants.
BlakeB717		#3959	[-]
Posts: 685 (12/26/07 9:36 PM) Registered user Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	OTTN's in the penultimate episode: Jenna M, Jon, Amber (S8), Twila, and Todd 5 times in SURVIVOR an OTTN has been given out in the episode before the Finale. In 3 of those 5 instances, the winner received that OTTN. In one of those instances, and generally OTTN character (Jon) has gotten it. Twila's is the only unexplained one, however it was involved in her consistant negative string of ratings leading up to the finale about the lie on her son's life. However, it may be a good idea to note that an OTTN is the penultimate episode for an edgically viable candidate is a good sign; an effective way to place doubt on a winner's chances of winning - thus increasing the "surprise" effect once they win. This "tidbit" may hopefully decrease the likelyhood of edgic losing support for an edgically viable candidate, because it sure got me this season with Todd. The second biggest reason why I chose Amanda over Todd as my winner pick before the Finale. The first being his extremely high visiblity in Episode Six, which now that I relflect back on, was understandable considering it was the episode that set the course for the remainder of the season (James and his idols).
fat little fingers		#3960	[-]
Posts: 5176 (12/27/07 1:45 AM) Registered User Reply Quote More Recent Posts Message Connection Block Invite	I like the discussion, but I won't be able to make any useful comments until Saturday. My focus would be the pre-merge, since I also believe that it holds everything we should need to identify the winner. I think the qualities of the game comments is what ultimately separated Todd from any of the other characters. I misread his visibility, in hindsight, as wallduck posted. More sensible comments, hopefully, to follow... p.s.: I think I'm getting gout. Everybody seems to have made cookies this year.

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S-15 Edgic (editing and logic)

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